LineSpeakerSt TimeContentEn Time
1DCA_se3_ag4_m_010.4298Now she's1.0332
3 1.4661one of the judges that-2.3607 
5 3.1976handed down one of the /cisions/- uh decisions in my favor when the-6.3721 
7 6.8627when the- when the fire department and the U.S. civil service lawyers where trying to help my case from out of court.11.7399 
9 12.8943Now, she was from Mississippi,14.3661 
11 16.1158and16.5487 
13 16.8950she had me kind of shaking in my boots for awhile, but she- and what- I guess a judge is a judge when it comes down to a just decision, really,22.3782 
15 22.7245you get what you're entitled to.23.7346 
17 24.5138And this, and uh, this funny thing,26.7648 
19 27.4862when the uh28.2366 
21 30.3433the corporation council for the district, was- in the court arguing his- trying to argue his point,34.2970 
23 35.6722and telling the judge what she couldn't do-37.7043 
25 38.2052in my case.39.1064 
27 40.3005And uh40.9235 
29 42.4262so she- told him that-43.6764 
31 44.0763your motion is denied.45.6574 
33 46.7540And when the s- U.S. civil service lawyer-49.0050 
35 49.3802asked the question-50.2171 
37 50.7943and- he-he- he said to, uh, she- he said to her-53.6513 
39 53.8822does that apply to U.S. civil service commission too?56.0755 
41 56.3064She said, yes.56.9990 
43 57.7710That was end of that.58.5862 
45 59.4701So then the-60.0762 
47 60.3359soon after that it went to trial, and I had judge- judge /RD-NAME-1/.63.7413 
49 65.1265Judge-65.5594 
51 68.6762believe the /?/, believe the /?/ his name was.70.9849 
53 71.2158Well, he's deceased now.72.3612 
55 72.8319and he- he- he uh, he heard the case as a trial, and he- /he hand down/ the decision in my favor.77.9399 
57 80.9413So uh, then when my name came up for Battalion Chief,83.9434 
59 84.7852then they s-85.1151 
61 85.2483s-85.4714 
63 85.6057start a few more tricks now. Oh, they did everything. I mean went to promotion board, and-89.6748 
65 89.9057lied one to- I don't s- this fire chief we have right now,92.9967 
67 93.3977um, he's93.9748 
69 94.1480uh94.6386 
71 94.8406he permitted one of the men to testify against me who was never my superior officer.98.7077 
73 99.0252that's one thing I got against him here,100.4393 
75 100.5547and another one-101.3050 
77 101.7091uh, they had- we got- I had a white fellow in my command. I was a captain of truck sixteen over here on Pennsylvania Avenue.106.7594 
79 107.2970I was Captain there-108.5091 
81 108.9008about uh-109.6634 
83 111.2218two-two- about three years before I was promoted to a Battalion Chief,114.2520 
85 115.0907and uh I had a white boy in my company, under my command, who wasn't studying his119.7930 
87 120.7742probation. He's supposed to study, you know.122.3903 
89 122.8223That's the course that a fireman studies when he first comes in, and he wasn't doing so well.127.2963 
91 127.9312So I went on vacation129.5394 
93 130.5862uh130.9874 
95 132.6929with my wife133.6453 
97 134.7917in Africa. She was teaching a summer in Africa.136.7396 
98DCA_int_01136.9248Oh.137.2910
99DCA_se3_ag4_m_01137.7326And uh in nineteen sixty-three,139.9134
101 140.9359and141.7440 
103 142.8406so when I came back-144.0238 
105 144.3124this chief over here, who was my chief too,146.7821 
107 148.0649uh148.4690 
109 148.6205sent a report, a favorable report on him150.7448 
111 151.0012for his three months.151.8778 
113 152.0504See the examine each fireman every three months you see, a new man.155.3051 
115 155.7299Well, I- when I was away, the three months came around, he examined himself, and he sent in a report on him that was favorable.161.6998 
117 162.3123So, when I came back from my163.4826 
119 163.7313uh, vacation164.7925 
121 165.4265in Africa, and in- in London167.2271 
123 167.8164uh-168.1994 
125 169.3513he told me that uh, he said, Captain, I've uh172.1507 
127 173.4205uh sent in uh174.5714 
129 175.6690a form on /RD-NAME-1/- a f- a- a form on /RD-NAME-1/.179.4715 
131 179.9044His name was /RD-NAME-1/,180.8279 
133 181.3843and uh,181.9141 
135 182.5883and I gave him good all the way through.184.6084 
137 185.4742said, you- d- you'd do the same thing. I said, sure.187.3423 
139 187.6637I figure he's a chief, he should-188.8280 
141 189.3413I wasn't there to- da- on his, uh, examination date, so he-192.3715 
143 193.0064couldn't wait for me, so he examined him,194.7379 
145 195.1131and he sent the report in. So, I just agreed with him, send the report in.198.4896 
147 199.2111Maybe I shoulda just chest- checked it myself, but I didn't do it. Now, the fourth month comes up-202.7607 
149 203.2118he didn't know anything hardly.204.4349 
151 204.9442So I sent a report on- on- I sent in a report uh209.0347 
153 209.8205running- er, grading him down you see.211.8550 
154DCA_int_01211.9476Uh-huh.212.3234
155DCA_se3_ag4_m_01212.3889He knew it.212.8726
157 214.0638Uh, and uh uh so, uh215.6129 
159 215.9386we tried to bring- bring him up, but I couldn't bring him up, you see. So the fifth month, he decided to res- to retire.220.9889 
161 221.9470Well this Captain- this Chief went to the promotion board,224.6378 
163 224.8380went up for Battalion Chief, and told226.5420 
165 226.7967that I'm the one who sent that- sent it- sent the good report in on-on a man when he was failing- was failing,231.0598 
167 232.0263you see.232.4431 
169 233.1869And so uh,233.9753 
171 234.5433I mean so- /yes he did that/.236.7397 
173 237.1520Try to get me to stop being a Battalion Chief.238.9895 
175 239.5359And so, but uh, I got the promo- finally got the promotion, but I had a lot of trouble getting it.243.4896 
176DCA_int_01243.6127Uh.243.9747
177DCA_se3_ag4_m_01244.1440I had to go through the- uh I applied to the Human Relations Councils and every- and everything. Then the- then the248.8211
179 249.2031Commissioner /RD-NAME-3/ had trouble then251.1243 
181 251.6762uh,252.1391 
183 252.4842even though the-253.1111 
185 253.6097the uh-254.4178 
187 254.9372examination255.9564 
189 256.1929of the case by the257.2395 
191 257.4373Council of Human Relations258.5215 
193 258.9198showed259.5836 
195 259.9587that there was260.7627 
197 261.6527some ulterior motives behind263.2688 
199 263.6440my- my getting the promotion,265.1735 
201 265.8373you see. Then the-267.5111 
203 268.0017uh, /RD-NAME-3/ had trouble then with269.6751 
205 270.1476Chief /RD-NAME-3/.270.9365 
207 272.1862changing his stand, but uh273.4849 
209 274.4372a case there, you know, where /RD-NAME-3/ told /RD-NAME-3/, well un-unless you make this /better/, there will be no more promotions.279.0836 
211 280.2876And so I was made the- but then they got at- but where they got at- um-284.7030 
213 285.3586back at me then was286.4381 
215 286.7232when I got promoted to a Battalion Chief,288.4271 
217 288.6818they removed me from the fire fighting division,290.5435 
219 291.2071and put me behind a desk,292.5815 
220DCA_int_01292.9278/Oh/.293.2164
221DCA_se3_ag4_m_01293.1171see.293.4762
222 294.9768So uh295.9292
224 297.6801but I got the promotion.298.6563 
226 299.1259I'm not worried about it. I was- I was Acting Battalion Chief for-301.6910 
228 301.9397for two years before I was promoted to a Battalion Chief. I mean I had plenty of experience at it, so it was nothing- wasn't anything new to it- new to me in uh being promoted to a Battalion Chief.309.8633 
230 310.5822Cause I had the-311.1305 
232 312.0562I've had lot of experience out of it.313.6124 
234 314.5359And so, as a matter of fact I think I got more experience out of being an Acting Battalion Chief then I318.8724 
236 319.2059would have319.6952 
238 319.8930being a Battalion Chief,321.1446 
240 321.7507you see.322.5587 
241DCA_int_01323.4701Is it easier now for a- for a Negro to get your promotion because what- what you went through to get [that /inaudible/?]330.1048
242DCA_se3_ag4_m_01329.4440[I think that] the- well once the ice is broken, it's usually easier afterwards, you see.332.8169
243 333.5708And but of course, uh I wouldn't put it- I wouldn't,336.3527
245 336.5380uh336.9168 
247 337.6399uh338.2880 
249 339.1695I don't think those colored man should be too naive about341.6730 
251 342.0551what's happening. They should keep them s- keep the343.7869 
253 344.4795uh345.2010 
255 346.5342their347.0315 
257 347.2741minds sharpened as far as the books are concerned,349.3278 
258DCA_int_01349.2883Mm-hm.349.6923
259DCA_se3_ag4_m_01349.6634and uh350.2695
260 350.7024don't351.1930
262 351.7413h- let them get any charges against them,353.2755 
264 353.5361being late, or354.4821 
266 355.6275uh, or-356.7514 
268 358.0816not358.3341 
270 358.6162taking their positions at fires, and things like that, you see.360.9850 
272 362.1511Whites have been to fires, heck with white fireman-364.2967 
274 365.0453You know when you go to a fire366.4017 
276 366.9500their367.3252 
278 367.8728companies the first-368.9983 
280 369.6044the engine companies, first, second, and third,371.7042 
282 372.1151in that order,372.7439 
284 373.4343that they respond to a-374.4822 
286 375.8831a house that's burning.376.7612 
288 377.2090The first and third-378.3015 
290 378.7708are suppose to respond to the front of the building.380.7044 
292 381.2238The second, fourth, to the rear of a building,382.9842 
293DCA_int_01383.4252Mm.383.6988
294DCA_se3_ag4_m_01384.6292and their first truck385.6846
296 386.0088company, that's the long /arrow/ trucks,387.6359 
298 387.9209goes to the front, and the second one goes to the rear,390.2313 
300 390.6319to ladder the-391.3534 
302 391.9305the building and do rescue work.393.4583 
304 394.5485Well,394.8179 
306 395.0494heck I've seen plenty of white fellows go to a house397.5487 
308 397.9238that was burning, never gonna take their positions like they should do it.400.3623 
310 400.6110And /never said anything/-401.3932 
312 401.5509nothing said about it.402.3332 
314 402.9192And I've seen those colored fellas do something like that, and then they chew them out for it.406.0909 
316 407.3293Oh yes, I mean-408.1111 
318 408.5626prejudice is one of those things that- it-it's here to stay. And it's a lot of it in412.3090 
320 412.7896educational fields too414.1601 
322 414.6943that uh415.3292 
324 417.1493even s- a lot of /us/- being done419.2145 
326 419.4544for the good420.1363 
328 420.3847of the Negro,421.1875 
330 422.7459back in a white man's head who's doing this,424.8287 
332 425.7184there's something426.4976 
334 427.2191that he doesn't- is hidden to him even,429.1013 
336 429.6721that he doesn't even see.431.0926 
338 431.4080Here's something like this.432.6157 
340 434.0480You-434.3240 
342 434.5345you get-434.9412 
344 435.4566some of these kids used to white kids from colleges437.6882 
346 438.5871that are coming in to help440.0772 
348 441.7347underprivileged children, you see.443.0775 
349DCA_int_01443.1574Mm.443.3763
350DCA_se3_ag4_m_01444.5255But444.7233
352 445.6989as long as they are helping underprivileged children,448.0446 
354 449.8916the underprivileged child451.2479 
356 451.7385is being discriminated against.452.9218 
358 453.3258He needs something454.4186 
360 454.6794that the p- child who is not underprivileged doesn't need.457.0775 
362 457.8748You see what I mean?458.4722 
363DCA_int_01458.5386Uh-huh.459.0110
364DCA_se3_ag4_m_01459.2889So it's all- it's- it's- it's- it's a thing that I'm trying to help you out,462.3768
366 463.4157but I'm holding you down just so I can help you out.465.1500 
368 465.3804You see what I mean?466.0535 
370 466.3143I mean it's one of those fine things that-468.1456 
372 468.4169that uh, even though you're trying to do some good,470.6358 
374 471.0225you- you- it- it- it uh472.4821 
376 472.8238<laugh>473.6607 
378 473.9133it-474.0817 
380 474.2585it uh-474.9362 
382 476.4726uh-477.1251 
384 478.7110it- it holds you-480.0936 
386 480.6273now in my church,481.4156 
388 481.7067they have a-482.3313 
390 483.5775something's happening. What is /?? church/?485.3667 
392 486.9815I mean, you- you- you- you're doing a good job. You're c- conscience- conscience- conscientious about it,491.8587 
394 493.5325but as long as you are to help a person in that situation,496.2164 
396 497.3975there's-497.8241 
398 498.8714you're holding- <laugh>500.3346 
399DCA_int_01500.5414Yeah.500.8264
400DCA_se3_ag4_m_01500.8144holding /them a [line/, you see. You see what I mean?]502.5425
401DCA_int_01501.4146[/inaudible/]502.3364
402DCA_se3_ag4_m_01502.8518I mean,503.1914
404 503.4097uh- but uh- but it- you- your intentions are very good.506.1340 
406 506.8959Uh, but now uh- they use that in ex- they /are less-/ they apply to- they speak of- of the white liberals.513.6594 
408 514.7033Well heck if you didn't have white liberals, /where would the Negro begin/.516.6385 
410 517.5620You got to have it.518.2079 
412 518.6020You can't do without it.519.5056 
414 520.8520/A nickel can't do where/ white folks help.522.5546 
416 523.6798Let them try.524.2270 
418 524.6036You kn- is- up to Howard University the other day, and we were talking about /unintelligible/,527.7204 
420 528.3164about uh528.8647 
422 530.8600uh531.3062 
424 532.0392you- you just can't get there. You can't- you don't have the organization to get to places, you know.536.4835 
426 536.9164Maybe I'm saying too much for this thing here, I don't know uh-539.1963 
428 539.4366<laugh>539.9417 
430 540.1486but the thing of it [is- it- it-]542.0244 
431DCA_int_01540.9855[/inaudible/]541.9976
432DCA_se3_ag4_m_01542.3400it uh-542.8956
434 543.6744it-543.9143 
436 544.3332I don't know. You just can't- don't have a-546.4976 
438 548.6657we can try,549.5328 
440 550.5379but we got to have-551.6056 
442 552.7600you see,553.3044 
444 553.5401we don't control554.7345 
446 558.8629the econo- the uh560.0668 
448 561.2454e- economics562.2346 
450 562.4326of this country,563.1784 
452 563.7606you see.564.1851 
454 565.2348And we don't have a lot of c- we don't- how much- how much-567.7244 
456 569.6580share- how many shares of stock do you suppose I own in571.5084 
458 571.7206some of these corporations right now? Little or none, none.573.8249 
460 574.3909We own some, uh, my wife owns some in one of the corporations, but it- it's small.577.9117 
462 578.6332I mean, you got to get economic and political power, you got- that's what you need.582.3406 
464 582.6135Got to have it.583.0016 
466 584.8956And so uh,585.5504 
468 587.9996I don't know.588.5479 
469DCA_int_01591.0010What do you do on Christmas592.3624
471 593.8602with your family?594.7815 
472DCA_se3_ag4_m_01595.2432Christmas?595.6761
473DCA_int_01595.6761Yeah, how do you feel about celebrating Christmas?597.8983
474DCA_se3_ag4_m_01597.8983Well the-598.4776
475 599.0425our- our celebration of Christmas is quite conventional.601.6944
477 603.0352Uh, we604.0043 
479 607.1908uh608.1144 
481 609.1533have a Christmas tree, and we- of course we611.3184 
483 611.6822look forward to having a turkey at Christmas time, exchanging gifts,614.7231 
485 615.9611the regular616.6341 
487 617.2365American way of ex- of uh618.7761 
489 619.4370celebrating Christmas.620.4146 
491 621.3381We attend church on Christmas day.623.1496 
493 624.0999We haven't been going to the Midnight Mass625.6237 
495 627.1099lately,627.6582 
497 629.3320but uh,630.0158 
499 630.3068that's about the size of it.631.3196 
501 631.6349Exchange gifts,632.4882 
503 633.0260tree.633.5195 
504DCA_int_01637.7488This might sound like a strange question, but639.7746
506 640.1142maybe not to a former fireman. Was there- were you ever in a situation where you thought you might be killed, or might die?645.4600 
508 647.6009Or thought this was it?648.6490 
509DCA_se3_ag4_m_01652.0281No.652.6112
511 653.9387I don't think so. I've had- I've been in a lot of dangerous situations. Not-not to die,658.0367 
513 658.4985but to get injured seriously, or to get trapped- I've been trapped in a building,662.1058 
515 663.3451uh, but it didn't last very long.665.0459 
517 666.1906Uh-666.5273 
519 666.9188I always took the precautions669.0646 
521 670.0874in uh, going to a fire. For instance like uh-672.8193 
523 673.7240<clears throat>674.1316 
525 677.6086when a man goes into a fire, he should not679.6322 
527 682.0642leave-682.6082 
529 682.9745uh, get away from his hose line, you see. I was always with the engine company for the most part,686.6528 
531 686.8260you see.687.2375 
533 687.9826And uh688.9086 
535 689.8758you- you don't get away from your hose line.692.1542 
537 692.7314You always-693.5106 
539 693.8778that- for that's your- your avenue of escape, you see.696.6181 
541 697.0602Well the way you came in,698.2893 
543 698.7148is where the-699.3090 
545 699.5031the hose line runs right along with you.701.2413 
547 701.4899You don't get up, and walk away another part of a building, leave it sitting on the floor.704.3533 
549 705.3428If you go somewhere else you carry the line with you, unless there's not a light in there.708.1132 
551 708.4784You go into a dark building at night, has a /lot of uh/ doors and closets and windows and whatnot-712.4442 
553 712.8263you- uh not windows, doors and closets714.8577 
555 715.7498and cubby holes,716.7306 
557 717.9153you get turned around in there,719.5431 
559 719.7493and forget where you came in.721.1016 
561 721.3381A dark building at nights, of course,722.8238 
563 723.1634you get lost in there, and you can get trapped.724.9280 
564DCA_int_01725.0683Mm.725.3251
565DCA_se3_ag4_m_01725.4227I- /cause/ I was be c- uh be careful about that. I was always careful about that, you see.728.9724
567 729.7607And uh,730.2701 
569 730.7120you always follow the hose line back to the exit.732.7818 
571 734.3401And- but usually when I went to a building at nights,737.7491 
573 737.9919or day either, when there's a lot of fire in there. I-I go in for fire- for the fire,741.7858 
575 742.2764and I put /unintelligible/ I put the fire out,744.4965 
577 744.7876you see.745.3932 
579 745.6817Now of course, the fires can go around behind you. That's the bad part about it.748.7119 
581 749.2502The fire goes behind you just turn your head around and /sweep- swipe the fire behind you/. /You ought to/ put it out.753.5309 
583 753.6922It definitely will put it out- put it out, you see.755.5574 
585 756.1820Now if you swish it756.9161 
587 757.4391like that, you see. Don't758.5290 
589 759.1482/direct/ a stream right on the water- on the fire, you761.4939 
591 761.8605sweep it, you see.762.8477 
592DCA_int_01762.8422Oh.763.1307
593DCA_se3_ag4_m_01763.9388Smother it like.764.8911
595 765.6992And so I never had trouble-767.4255 
597 767.6356uh- uh, a situation where769.7128 
599 770.8738uh,771.4084 
601 773.9382I was trapped and couldn't get out.775.3902 
603 775.7372I was chased out of a room, out of a window one time at a fire.778.9171 
604DCA_int_01779.1021Mm.779.2915
605DCA_se3_ag4_m_01780.3973Well this time I had left the hose, but it was in the daytime, I could see what I was doing. It was one morning, about five thirty in the morning,786.1854
607 786.7077this house caught on fire and the-788.1879 
609 788.5774I put the line down to p- throw the mattress out of the window.791.1223 
611 791.9793The whole room was burning, you see, but I w- but I wanted to throw the mattress out of the window. So,796.3454 
613 796.6875in doing so, uh,798.2857 
615 800.4760the whole room fill up- flared up behind me.802.5231 
617 803.2806So, <laugh>804.3194 
619 804.5552but the- so happened that the, uh, the sergeant was right behind me.808.1627 
621 809.4352And then I headed for the window-811.0829 
623 811.6685See I picked the mattress up, and there was-813.4896 
625 813.7127and it just went up in a-814.6809 
627 815.6995big flame816.3150 
628DCA_int_01816.3948Mm.816.6545
629DCA_se3_ag4_m_01816.6473and it cut me off817.5173
630 818.6021from my hose line, you see. Because the window was next to me, so I headed for the window.821.6924
632 822.5008I couldn't get to the-823.3334 
634 823.8983to the uh-824.5280 
636 825.2948It-it got pretty hot in there that particular morning. It was a small room, but I couldn't- it was <laugh>- it was a-829.8203 
638 830.0989The fire was pretty near the hose line, I couldn't get to it, so I went to the window. But the sergeant pick up the hose and put the fire,834.7598 
640 835.1605and I got the mattress. He and I threw it out the window.837.0705 
641DCA_int_01837.4620Oh.837.7552
642DCA_se3_ag4_m_01838.5480And then he put the fire- uh- that's rest of the room- rest of the room out too.841.3037
644 842.2344But I don't have many ca- case like that.844.3812 
645DCA_int_01846.6063Sometimes when you think about that, people say, oh, whatever's gonna happen, is gonna happen anyway.851.3326
646DCA_se3_ag4_m_01851.6182Oh that's true too, but uh, you can be-853.5369
648 853.9083be854.1527 
650 854.3677careful about some s- some known things. Now856.8585 
652 857.1420there's a case of a building-858.2124 
654 858.4518Uh we've had uh,859.2241 
656 860.0717a ceiling falling on- on us, and hit us on the head, and knock the heck out of you.863.0061 
658 863.4216That's happen- that happens anytime.864.7460 
660 865.0057Ceiling fall on you, especially the old houses.866.6937 
662 867.6026/unintelligible/ give you trouble too869.5762 
664 870.2131and things like that, but-871.5475 
666 872.7377/Useless, please/ use your head, and don't be too much of a hero.875.8821 
668 876.2988I've had men do- uh, go into a building, and uh-879.1560 
670 879.9052uh,880.3304 
672 880.5787you know,880.9913 
674 881.5595try to find his company-882.5915 
676 883.4225trying to get with his company.884.2749 
678 884.5925That's a foolish thing to do.885.6433 
680 886.3569You don't know where- you don't where the company is in a building that's burning. You can't see your way in there,890.1918 
682 890.6903why go in?891.2230 
684 892.6203/You'll be/ minus a man. They got to stop fighting the fire to find you,895.1165 
685DCA_int_01895.1653Yeah.895.5548
686DCA_se3_ag4_m_01895.6297you see.896.0696
688 896.3524Doesn't make any sense. We had one up- We had down on uh-898.9307 
690 899.4501on uh- G street one- one day,901.7613 
692 902.1768and he's /unintelligible/.903.3194 
694 904.3575/unintelligible/905.7383 
696 906.9284but he's a- he's a dead man.908.6170 
698 910.9282You don't do things like that, you see.912.5383 
699DCA_int_01914.4600Wow, you're a real interesting conversationalist.916.9661
700DCA_se3_ag4_m_01917.1567<laugh>918.7967