LineSpeakerSt TimeContentEn Time
1DCB_int_010.4784So tell me a little bit about3.0877
3 3.4629your neighborhood growing up.4.6734
4DCB_se3_ag4_m_025.4662<ts>5.6361
6 6.5280Um,7.3350
8 8.3727this sounds like the old interview.9.6469
10 10.1849So11.3954
12 11.9546and-12.2378
14 12.5210From the old interview you'd probably learn more about my neighborhood cause15.4912
16 15.9301it was fresher in my [mind then.]17.3459
17DCB_int_0117.0415[<laugh>]17.5582
18DCB_se3_ag4_m_0217.9334Um,18.5705
20 18.9923I lived-19.8347
22 20.5001We m- we moved- my family moved to Second and T Street23.1830
24 23.7989Northeast, uh, right across the street from McKinley Tech,26.3444
26 26.7833when I was very young, probably about four-29.4237
28 30.0184four years old.30.7475
30 31.5657And, um,32.8541
32 33.1018<ts> it was34.1707
34 34.6663a neighborhood of36.0750
36 36.2520working class people. Everybody in the n- pretty much everybody in the neighborhood worked.39.7885
38 40.3265Um,41.0485
40 41.4025single family row houses43.1368
42 43.8205and it was a very46.0646
44 46.9707very warm,48.1316
46 48.3227very collective, very interactive neighborhood.50.9815
48 51.2219Everyone knew everyone. Everyone knew53.6432
50 54.2803everyone else's55.0631
52 55.2330children.55.7710
54 56.2311All the children played together. We generally played in the alley, that was our playground.60.7404
56 61.3250Um,61.9692
58 62.4223and on any given day, the kids would be playing in the alley.65.1122
60 65.4945Um, the fathers would be out67.3209
62 67.7639in the back, in the garages working on their cars,70.3477
64 70.7866and, um,72.0184
66 72.4968in the evenings,73.5035
68 73.8276people would be sitting- In the warm weather, people would be sitting on their front porches.77.0698
69DCB_int_0178.8324And,79.5657
71 80.3302um, so that was the Second and T, and then82.2061
73 82.3690how long did you stay there before you moved over to t- Tacoma [Park?]85.7214
74DCB_se3_ag4_m_0285.4524[<ts>]85.6153
75 86.0541We moved86.8861
77 87.6752to88.6734
79 89.1760the Tacoma Park section of DC91.5586
81 93.1939<exhale>94.1070
83 96.4926when I was98.8116
85 101.0839I think in the eighth grade, so103.3675
87 104.2099that would have been105.5690
89 108.3511sixty six. Nineteen sixty six,110.5780
91 111.7389um,112.2274
93 112.5318we moved to113.3529
95 113.4945that neighborhood.114.1599
96DCB_int_01115.0348Was there any reason that you guys moved?116.6559
97DCB_se3_ag4_m_02117.2009My parents wanted, um,119.0556
99 120.2166a, uh,120.9811
101 121.2542house with a little bit more space.122.6559
103 123.1514They wanted a house with fewer steps.125.5441
105 126.3440And, um, there was an opportunity, this house came on the market. I don't remember how the found it.131.2751
107 131.7777Um,132.4431
109 133.0843and, um,134.2240
111 134.7337it was a- it was a split level house136.8574
113 137.2609and fairly new at the time. It had not- it wasn't very old.140.2878
115 140.8895And, um,142.0646
117 142.4185they got the opportunity to buy it and they- then they did.144.7616
119 145.4100So we moved, um,146.6417
121 147.4062we moved-147.9301
123 148.5247before the school year was out.149.8555
124DCB_int_01150.8112Was that neighborhood just as warm and inviting as the-153.7460
126 154.3123the Second and T Street?155.4025
127DCB_se3_ag4_m_02155.8201It- it- it was actually in- in its own way. It's a little bit different because the houses were not as close together,161.2538
129 161.8343so all the houses163.0165
131 163.4454in the- in164.1320
133 164.5001the immediate area were detached homes, which was different.167.3388
135 168.1033Come in.168.4643
136DCB_int_01173.7564And so you said, all the houses, they were detached, [so-]176.3444
137DCB_se3_ag4_m_02175.9834[They were-] the houses were detached, so178.1495
138 178.4751you weren't qu-178.9636
140 179.1335quite as close to your neighbors,180.4148
142 180.6767but we still all knew the neighbors. Um,183.1372
144 183.7319the- I was older now so we didn't play in the alley like we used to when I was- when I was young,188.1745
146 188.6417and, um,189.6328
148 189.9513but I knew all the- the kids around me191.9476
150 192.3086and193.1480
152 193.3321knew their families. They- they- they knew us.195.8380
154 196.2486Um,196.5955
156 196.7583we did not go198.1599
158 198.7475from house to house so one of the things that was special and unique about202.2699
160 202.8008the, um, T Street neighborhood and- and being there and being there206.2170
162 206.7125at a very young age was as kids,208.5035
164 208.8432we would209.2326
166 209.5087go from one person's house to the other person's house all the time to play213.3708
168 213.7814or214.2911
170 214.5813if my parents had to be away, one of the other neighbors would babysit and217.9692
172 218.2665they'd just have us come over and stay there until220.6450
174 220.9636our parents came back and222.4289
176 222.8578we'd spend the night and-223.9338
178 224.0895at each other's houses and that sort of thing. And so,226.4256
180 226.8291um,227.2680
182 228.3723when I got up t-229.1227
184 229.4312to the Tacoma Park section of DC,231.3708
186 232.0575I was older and we didn't do that kind of thing but the neighbors were still close and everybody was friendly and236.8257
188 237.2717we helped out everybody, so in the winter time,239.8455
190 240.2278everybody got out and241.2684
192 241.7710all the fathers and sons were out cleaning off the snow and244.1707
194 244.4863shoveling walks and245.5623
196 246.0296moving cars and that sort of thing.247.5657
197DCB_int_01248.5638Are you an only child?249.4274
198DCB_se3_ag4_m_02249.5619<ts> No I have a sister. Or I had a sister.251.2537
200 251.7110I had a sister. She passed last year.253.0389
201DCB_int_01253.5728Okay.253.8984
203 254.1603Younger or older?254.9324
204DCB_se3_ag4_m_02254.9178A year younger.255.6506
205DCB_int_01256.0929Okay.256.4397
207 256.8120So did you do a lot of stuff with your younger sister [or?]259.7747
208DCB_se3_ag4_m_02259.5090[No, actually. Growing] up we sort of led,262.4964
209DCB_int_01259.9904[Because she was a girl.]260.9107
210DCB_se3_ag4_m_02262.9748um,263.4632
212 263.7747very separate264.6879
214 265.0914lives in terms of our activities.267.0098
216 267.3926Um, she268.5105
218 268.7907went to269.6685
220 270.3623a public high school. I went to272.7125
222 273.3567the private high school and, so,275.0573
224 275.4703we had different schedules and276.9854
226 277.4170our schools were278.4435
228 278.7266far apart.279.4062
230 279.8239And we just had different interest and participated in a lot of different activities. So I was into sports, she was not into sports.285.7460
232 286.2557And, so, I was gone a lot287.3924
234 287.8597because of that.288.5746
235DCB_int_01289.5515Why did y'all go to different schools?290.7459
236DCB_se3_ag4_m_02290.8774<ts>290.9566
238 291.5832I had the292.4397
240 292.7412opportunity to294.1924
242 294.6313go to /RD-SCHOOL-2/- I was recruited,295.9125
244 296.3585if you will,296.8682
246 297.3000to go to /RD-SCHOOL-2/. Um,298.5459
248 298.9748we were at-299.3712
250 299.5199we had gone to the same schools up until302.1745
252 302.4576that time.303.1089
254 303.6257In the ninth grade,304.9282
256 305.3287uh, it was a time when the private schools308.0541
258 308.4505were, um,309.5549
260 309.7814looking to diversify.310.8503
262 311.5765And, so,312.7020
264 313.0702they were, um,314.9602
266 315.2363essentially recruiting, for lack of a better term,317.6594
268 318.1570uh, students from319.3038
270 319.6294some of the public schools.320.8399
272 321.1655I was recommended by, um,323.7181
274 324.5109the counselor and principal from326.5780
276 326.7620Gordon Junior High School, what was then Gordon [Junior High School,]329.5765
277DCB_int_01328.9849[Mm-hm.]329.3214
278DCB_se3_ag4_m_02330.0933to take the test for /RD-SCHOOL-2/.332.4859
280 333.0735And I did.334.5176
282 334.7412Initially I wasn't accepted,336.0366
284 336.5534and, um,337.7073
286 337.9338but they asked me to come back for a second interview and I ultimately340.5530
288 340.9748was accepted, so I- I- I went there.343.1976
290 343.5374My sister went to344.7762
292 344.8824Coolidge High School, which was the high school in our347.2863
294 347.7181neighborhood in- in Tacoma Park section of DC.349.8205
295DCB_int_01350.0824Mm.350.3798
297 351.1868So let's go back to elementary school for a minute.353.4213
298DCB_se3_ag4_m_02353.4562Sure.353.8074
299DCB_int_01353.7535<clears throat> So you guys- Which elementary school did you go to?356.3231
300DCB_se3_ag4_m_02356.2453/RD-SCHOOL-2/.356.6558
301DCB_int_01356.9815/RD-SCHOOL-2/.357.3425
302DCB_se3_ag4_m_02357.5619Yes.357.9159
303DCB_int_01358.1495And how was that experience?359.4845
304DCB_se3_ag4_m_02359.5623It was great.360.1428
306 360.3410I a-360.9357
308 361.0631/RD-SCHOOL-2/ was a lot of fun. I had some362.6700
310 363.2575fantastic teachers, great teachers,365.6473
312 366.0366um, there. I enjoyed going to- to school there. It was-369.7248
314 370.3973it was a lot of fun. I enjoyed elementary school, and, um,373.5020
316 374.2028the-374.6488
318 374.9248I went from there,375.9796
320 376.5813um,377.1872
322 377.5269to /RD-SCHOOL-2/ Junior High School in the seventh grade.380.1037
324 380.5426Um,381.1514
326 381.9017I was there for just one year. My sister was still at- at384.3764
328 384.7304Gor- at- I'm sorry, at /RD-SCHOOL-2/ in the sixth grade.386.6983
330 388.1070That summer between389.7676
332 390.0083my seventh and eighth grade,391.3675
334 392.0895the392.6488
336 393.3744DC public school system395.1518
338 395.7110relaxed its rules about where you could go to school.398.0683
340 398.9602And399.6469
342 400.2881now they were allowing401.6968
344 402.0366students from other parts of the city404.0966
346 404.6275to go to some of the schools west of Rock Creek Park408.0154
348 408.4543that were both under-enrolled410.3727
350 410.7266and411.4558
352 411.6540essentially segregated.412.7724
354 413.4066So my-414.3552
356 414.7870while I was away in North Carolina my mother transferred my sister and I417.8947
358 418.3548to419.1164
360 419.2933/RD-SCHOOL-2/ Junior High School,420.4543
362 420.9215and so every day we rode422.7549
364 422.9248the bus all the way across town424.3335
366 424.7058from425.1447
368 425.7110Northeast to far Northwest427.9267
370 428.3798to go to school.429.4062
371DCB_int_01430.8969So that's- Okay, so432.1924
373 432.7870that's a interesting point you brought up, and I was-434.7408
375 435.0452I was listening to your older recording,437.0881
377 437.5411and you talked about when you first kind of interacted with white people I think it was when you-441.6398
378DCB_se3_ag4_m_02442.0079[<ts> from /??/]442.8828
379DCB_int_01442.0404[from- at Langley.]442.8898
380DCB_se3_ag4_m_02443.4562Well, no, it was at- it was really at /RD-SCHOOL-2/.445.7782
381DCB_int_01445.7710At /RD-SCHOOL-2/, [okay.]446.6275
382DCB_se3_ag4_m_02446.5072[It was] at /RD-SCHOOL-2/.447.1797
383DCB_int_01447.7318And-448.3831
385 448.5713and so talk about that experience and then, and then kind of this idea of going to this452.7903
387 453.2009desegregated school and how that was different from455.9588
389 456.1782your segregated school and that experience because458.5426
391 458.9461now, you know, I- I've never been to a- a segregated school,462.1994
393 462.9640um, and so that's a very different thing for me.465.1372
394DCB_se3_ag4_m_02465.6257So466.3335
396 468.2773going to /RD-SCHOOL-2/ and then going to /RD-SCHOOL-2/ for a year,471.8947
398 472.3589um,472.9394
400 473.2155the schools were474.4543
402 475.3958all black475.9196
404 476.1320s- in terms of students.477.1726
406 477.6681I- There might have been one or two white students there, um, at some point.481.3462
408 481.8064Um, but I don't remember.482.9390
410 483.6398For- for the most part they were all black.485.1419
412 485.3995Um,485.7676
414 485.9588the teachers were486.9215
416 487.5090essentially all black.488.4505
418 489.3071But it was a very nurturing491.3287
420 491.9304environment492.4968
422 493.0277and, um,494.4364
424 494.7479I had great teachers. They were496.3265
426 497.4774accomplished in their own right,498.9144
428 499.2330more so than500.1886
430 500.8965I realized at the time, in terms of502.8574
432 503.3429the experience in other things, educational experience that they had.506.3868
434 506.8682Um, and they were well respected of course in the- in the community, as teachers were back in the-511.3887
436 511.5728in that time.512.2028
438 512.7762More so than now.513.7177
440 514.3194Um,514.8715
442 515.2509and, so,516.0012
444 516.4543it was- it was517.9268
446 518.5780a very519.6186
448 520.4185encouraging and521.9871
450 522.1641nurturing en-523.1834
452 523.3321environment,524.0683
454 524.5638and525.1726
456 525.5973it was the kind of situation where527.6685
458 528.0649the- the schools-529.4878
460 529.8984the teachers knew all the kids531.5619
462 532.3831and533.2579
464 534.0296most of their parents as well.535.8418
466 536.4859And, so,537.4133
468 537.8451if538.4539
470 538.7199there was anything going on,540.1499
472 540.5038the parents were very much involved in the school. All the parents went to PTA meetings,544.4793
473DCB_int_01544.6067Mm.544.9536
474DCB_se3_ag4_m_02545.0173and, um,546.2065
476 546.7799the parents not only kept track of549.0735
478 549.3142what their own kids were doing in school,550.8999
480 551.3358but they also wanted to know552.5534
482 552.8719what their553.6789
484 554.1037friends were doing in school too.555.3637
486 555.6681So556.1495
488 556.4468when I would go to557.7181
490 558.4968Larry's house, who was a good friend of mine growing up,560.7337
492 561.4416and it was about report card time563.1659
494 563.3995then563.5765
496 564.0083I would always get asked about my report card566.0400
498 566.7974as well as567.6610
500 567.9796knowing that he's been asked his. And vice versa.570.1357
502 570.6029So571.1126
504 571.9055everybody was kind of involved and education was a very very important575.6261
506 576.3693thing to all of the families at that time because it was a time when579.5549
508 579.9513people were starting to581.1730
510 581.4562see opportunities evolve and develop,583.3392
512 583.8984um, as black people.584.8328
514 585.4062Um,585.9230
516 586.3831but education-587.2579
518 587.6898Everybody understood education was key to589.6435
520 589.8559being able to take advantage of those opportunities.591.6681
521DCB_int_01593.1942So593.8030
523 594.2986moving from595.3745
525 596.7266the /RD-SCHOOL-4/598.0404
527 598.4964is most definitely predominantly white,600.4410
528DCB_se3_ag4_m_02600.4826Yes.600.9427
529DCB_int_01601.3250um, and I602.2807
531 602.6983thought something603.4699
533 603.8876even in604.4256
535 604.5642nineteen- what was this, nineteen sixty six?606.6313
536DCB_se3_ag4_m_02607.3038[S-]607.9125
537DCB_int_01607.3038[Um,] sixty608.4081
538 608.5426[eight some-]608.9815
539DCB_se3_ag4_m_02608.6488[sixty-]609.4912
540 610.1495sixty [six was] when- Yes, when I went to /RD-SCHOOL-2/.612.6596
541DCB_int_01610.7624[Six.]611.0597
542 612.9427And you said,613.7143
544 613.8559I realized that we were all friends615.7318
546 617.2721when we were at school but it was very different when we left school.619.9692
547DCB_se3_ag4_m_02620.1178Sure.620.5992
548DCB_int_01620.7054And that just really like- that hit me like a ton of bricks.623.8052
550 624.5463Um, describe what it was like at school and then what did that mean to you- what- why- what made you say that statement when you left-631.5515
552 631.7497when- when three o'clock- when the bell rang?633.6186
553DCB_se3_ag4_m_02634.3973Well,634.7158
555 635.1093I- I d- I-636.0296
557 636.1924s- don't remember specifics but I remember vaguely638.8965
559 639.3273that, um,640.4397
561 640.8544there were,641.8172
563 642.0791um-642.4614
565 643.2188We'd get different reactions from students645.2859
567 646.1212w- that we enc- classmates that we encountered648.6879
569 649.6223in class,650.6063
571 650.8328on campus,651.7177
573 652.3306versus653.3854
575 653.7747out of class654.6808
577 655.1268off campus.656.0541
578DCB_int_01656.5001Hm.656.6771
579DCB_se3_ag4_m_02657.0735And657.7672
581 658.6138that- that was the difference.660.1641
583 660.5746Um,661.2613
585 661.9196it was-662.9744
587 663.9654DC was still,665.8880
589 667.9267in many respects,669.7460
591 672.0296segregated672.8932
593 673.0914certainly by communities.674.6488
595 676.0858So, um,677.5340
597 677.7181my677.9800
599 678.6525best friend679.2471
601 680.8540was the first student to graduate from /RD-SCHOOL-2/ High School,683.2146
603 683.5977first black student,684.3607
605 684.9640to ever graduate from /RD-SCHOOL-2/ High School.686.4856
607 687.6327So688.3548
609 688.8615that sort of gives you an idea of690.9144
611 691.8772that wasn't that l-692.7972
613 692.9956I mean it was693.4628
615 693.8876a lot of years ago, but694.8857
617 695.2650relatively speaking, when we talk about697.3675
619 697.7356segregation, people think699.4770
621 700.1495beyond that,700.8715
623 701.2296and actually it was not that-703.3533
625 703.9338not that long ago.704.9036
627 705.2717Um,705.9938
629 706.3689and706.9919
631 707.2933it was mostly because it was sort of de facto segregation in that,711.3708
633 711.7885um,712.4468
635 713.1093there were very few people who l-714.2419
637 714.7162black people and people of color who lived west of Rock Creek Park.717.5053
639 718.1353Um,718.7937
641 719.1234most,720.0366
643 720.6242um, people of color, black people in particular,722.7691
645 723.1514lived East of Rock Creek Park,724.7526
647 725.3075um, and then certain other neighborhoods727.2400
649 727.5798over time were initially all black and729.7743
651 731.0456grew and changed and became-732.5251
653 732.9710I'm sorry, all white- and then grew and734.7691
655 735.3142changed and became,736.2486
657 736.5076um,736.9111
659 737.3429all black, and738.2490
661 738.7870so it- it-739.3958
663 739.6435it- it just changed over time.741.1160
665 741.6681But it was an interesting743.0739
667 743.2509dynamic to see that happen.744.9073
669 745.5515And to- and to be part of that, and747.1726
671 747.5761some places were more welcoming than others.749.8597
673 750.2915/RD-SCHOOL-2/,751.0985
675 751.2896because of the752.2169
677 753.0098Quaker philosophy and754.4654
679 755.0173sort of the-755.7163
681 755.9588the underlying theme of the school757.5303
683 758.0824was probably more welcoming760.0997
685 760.7766for black students than762.3614
687 762.6525some of the other private schools764.3444
689 764.6983that were also taking in and re- recruiting and taking in black students at the time.768.2986
691 768.6737And we probably, percentage wise, probably had a larger number of black students771.9867
693 772.4085than some of our, um,773.7959
695 774.4331competing private schools at the time.776.4364
696DCB_int_01777.8380Did you ever talk to your sister about her779.7110
698 780.0508high s- I mean I'm sure you did- but about her high school, and did you kind of see her high school experience784.4014
700 784.7058as very different from your high school experience?786.7870
701DCB_se3_ag4_m_02787.0418Um,787.4524
703 787.7427I knew her high school experience was- was different than mine.790.9215
705 791.1942We never really talked about and compared the two.793.3179
707 793.7143And that's interesting, you should ask. I- Now that I think about it, we- we- we never did.797.1376
709 797.5907I knew a lot of the people that she went to high school with, um,800.4435
711 800.8045particularly the guys because I played ball803.4066
713 803.9234with them on the weekends and during the summer and that sort of stuff.806.6700
715 807.1868Um,807.8876
717 808.1353<ts> and s- knew a lot of her friends that she went to school with,810.6216
719 811.0418when they came by the house and that s- um,813.0806
721 813.4628but813.7814
723 814.1070th- the day to day kinds of things that went on at the school,817.1905
725 817.4949I- I really didn't818.9461
727 819.1230talk to her that much.820.2061
729 820.4793But I don't think821.5694
731 822.2419it was that different823.7356
733 824.6983than the experience I had826.1495
735 826.6421in827.1447
737 827.6685public junior high school.829.0172
738DCB_int_01829.2188Hm.829.4687
739DCB_se3_ag4_m_02829.9621And, um,831.1372
741 831.5832<ts> and then as I,832.4114
743 832.9252uh, there were a lot of the people that I went to junior high school with835.9975
745 836.5426who went on to go to what was then Western839.8313
747 840.2136High School,840.8719
749 841.2542which is now Duke Ellington.842.4930
751 843.1372Um,843.6044
753 843.8380some went to Wilson,844.8474
755 845.2155and some- some went to Roosevelt,846.7233
757 847.0772but I s-847.6577
759 847.8559I would kind of keep in touch with some of them, or see them,850.1778
761 850.6138and so you had a sense of what was going on in the853.1622
763 853.6152DC public schools854.8470
765 855.2222as- as well.856.1141
767 856.4014So I didn't really857.1659
769 857.6685get into858.8082
771 859.4453the sort of daily routines of what was going on, but some of the-862.1353
773 862.4114some of the social activities I certainly knew about. <laugh>866.4081