LineSpeakerSt TimeContentEn Time
1LES_se0_ag4_f_020.2067We were talking about drugs [in the neighborhood.]2.2158
2LES_int_011.2040[We were talk- yeah. I was] wo- yeah, I was curious. I mean, people do talk about, you know4.5519
3 4.7151that period as being, you know,6.7002
5 6.8121heightened crime, heightened8.5686 
7 8.7706danger- you know, feeling unsafe. Was that [something you experienced?]12.2344 
8LES_se0_ag4_f_0211.1573[Well,]11.6621
10 12.0386[this] is like, in a later-13.6147 
11 13.7779latter part of the sixties,15.6572
13 16.1833and the early part of the seventies.18.8818 
14LES_int_0118.8818Yeah.19.2875
15LES_se0_ag4_f_0219.4927Y- crime b-20.2853
17 21.4324increased.22.2904 
18LES_int_0122.5646[Okay.]22.8332
19LES_se0_ag4_f_0222.6015[It's] not something that I saw or experienced.25.9542
20 26.4631Um, I saw drugs.28.2389
22 28.7606I saw people roaming the street, drugged out. I remember two things. (laughing)33.8472 
24 34.3128One was this guy who used to be- he was a fixture in the West Village,38.4149 
26 38.7366who used to skate around, and it wasn't rollerblades then it was the four wheels,42.4390 
27LES_int_0142.4943Yeah.42.9325
28LES_se0_ag4_f_0243.1098with- in a clown costume,44.7464
30 45.0355with a little umbrella.46.3685 
32 46.4944I remember him. That had to be [drugs.]48.4382 
33LES_int_0148.3542[<laugh>]49.9070
34LES_se0_ag4_f_0248.7506[I remember the electric] circus that was on Eighth Street, [right?]52.7874
35LES_int_0152.3118[Yeah.]52.9646
36LES_se0_ag4_f_0253.1604And I also remember- I have this vivid memory- /you'll notice that-/56.5830
38 56.9374of, um, somebody-58.3629 
40 58.8945<ts> this woman walking around naked.61.1653 
42 62.0932In panties,63.0787 
44 63.4722holding a birthday cake.64.8431 
46 66.1767And she was huge.67.5234 
47LES_int_0167.9392[Wow.]68.4935
48LES_se0_ag4_f_0268.0325[I w-] I will always- how can you lose that [memory, right?]71.7142
49LES_int_0170.8243[Wow. <laugh>]72.3211
50LES_se0_ag4_f_0272.2745[<laugh>]74.5487
51LES_int_0173.0858[<laugh>]73.9251
53 74.3202[So you're] g- we're guessing she was not [sober? <laugh>]77.6821 
54LES_se0_ag4_f_0276.3532[No, she was not sober. And I] also remember and know who the drug addicts were80.9970
55 81.1227in- i- in the- in the82.7128
57 82.8387[projects.]83.4809 
58LES_int_0183.2104[Yeah, yeah.]84.0730
59LES_se0_ag4_f_0283.8119[You know,] so to that extent, yeah. [Did I s-]86.4727
60LES_int_0185.9429[Was it s-] was it something that affected your friends as you got older, into high school and things like that? Did- were there [people who got] kind of caught up into it?92.9596
61LES_se0_ag4_f_0291.0748[<sigh>]91.7089
62 94.4327Yeah, but what happened was96.1258
64 96.3625as I-97.2904 
66 97.9286as I went through school,99.4021 
68 100.0629I became101.3429 
70 102.1099s- for- for lack of any other words, segregated.104.6606 
72 105.0829Because I was part of that,106.5151 
74 106.7629um,107.4157 
76 108.0625that [gifted program- the talented and gifted program.]111.1167 
77LES_int_01108.6569[You doing so well in school, yeah.]111.1634
78LES_se0_ag4_f_02111.4804So112.2583
80 113.1498they s- I s- j-114.1197 
82 114.6605I- when I st- went to /RD-SCHOOL-3/,116.7953 
84 117.4017the117.5829 
86 117.8300people in my class,119.0704 
88 119.6019there were a few people who went to the junior high school,122.6688 
90 123.0232but they weren't in my class. And my class stayed to the-125.6298 
92 125.8803together for the two years that I was there.127.8620 
94 128.2164And they were from other parts of the city, like from the Upper131.6263 
95LES_int_01131.6263[Yeah.]132.0947
96LES_se0_ag4_f_02132.0201[West Side.]132.7335
97 132.9480What was interesting was that they had two,135.3447
99 135.9322um,136.6830 
101 137.3731S-P programs.138.6821 
103 139.0178And it's- it's funny, I wonder if they think that children don't notice this,142.1873 
105 142.5010but in the two programs, one was white,145.1529 
107 145.6385all white kids.146.5244 
109 146.8962And they147.5463 
111 147.7889they took the French classes,149.3349 
113 149.5074and started them on French.150.8223 
115 151.2933And then the other class152.7288 
117 152.8454every- was everybody else.154.1544 
119 154.3515Right.154.7199 
121 155.1628So155.9263 
123 156.2200we were- and of course I was in the everybody else, but my everybody else class wasn't all black, because this is a very diverse city. [So it] was everybody in this [class.]165.7777 
124LES_int_01162.6955[Yeah.]163.1657
126 165.5865[Yeah.]165.8896 
127LES_se0_ag4_f_02166.2067Um,166.9807
129 167.6556[and-]168.4343 
130LES_int_01168.2151[But no] French for you guys?169.5394
131LES_se0_ag4_f_02169.5580no, we took Spanish.170.7451
133 171.3759<laugh>173.5348 
135 174.0198But the-174.4581 
137 174.6493but the great thing about it is, like, I remember there was this guy named /RD-NAME-1/ who was Indian.179.6653 
139 180.0942And this in the sixties, you know, and,182.1260 
141 182.4571um, I don't know if you've heard of Baba Olatunji? He's a African [drummer.]186.2153 
142LES_int_01185.9309[Uh.]186.7813
143 187.2592Yes, I think so.188.3520
144LES_se0_ag4_f_02188.4389He- he's since died, but his son,191.3100
146 192.0700um, he had I think193.3803 
148 193.6274three daughters194.9937 
150 196.1914and one son.197.1752 
152 197.2787And his son Kwame198.5135 
154 199.1004was in my class. [And] we were t-201.5944 
155LES_int_01200.1209[Cool.]200.5173
156LES_se0_ag4_f_02201.8695I stayed in touch with him203.3977
158 203.9119through high school.205.3800 
160 205.7950He ended up going to Harvard.207.5803 
162 207.8694His father, I found out later, went to-210.1402 
164 210.6035to Morehouse.211.6270 
166 212.1773And like, fast forward- and I remember going to his house, he- they had a216.6617 
168 217.0254fabulous apartment.218.4149 
170 219.0671on Riverside.219.7712 
172 219.9437In hindsight,220.9882 
173LES_int_01220.9882[Wow.]221.5378
174LES_se0_ag4_f_02221.2487[He-] I realized that he liked me. He had a crush on me. I [didn't know that then, I was clueless. I wish I was] a little bit [smarter.]228.4096
175LES_int_01224.0971[Oh.]225.2395
177 225.7198[<laugh>]226.9554 
179 228.2557[<laugh>]229.5978 
180LES_se0_ag4_f_02229.3888[But he] liked me.230.5825
181 230.9170And he invited me to his house, and I remember going and it was like, this formal dining room. I didn't even know how to act or how to eat or anything. And we had these, like,239.1451
183 239.2989beautiful china plates and240.8983 
185 241.2061there were all these people. His family, and his mother and in this beautiful African dress, [and his father was] there, and it was all very, you know, formal. I'm like, okay.249.7139 
186LES_int_01245.4766[Oh.]246.2460
187 249.7186[<laugh>]250.7678
188LES_se0_ag4_f_02250.5605[And]251.3320
189 251.5371fast forward and years later I saw him, you know, off and on like, after college and we were257.2246
191 257.5510working and doing our thing,258.7062 
193 259.5024And he,260.3974 
195 260.8697um,261.7836 
197 262.1613<ts> he died. I had heard [through- and I] couldn't figure out-265.9506 
198LES_int_01264.1564[Hm.]264.7296
199LES_se0_ag4_f_02266.0798I don't remember who told me,267.1885
201 267.6629but he died. He died in like, this- like, mysterious drowning [accident.]272.3627 
202LES_int_01272.0960[Oh.]272.5204
203LES_se0_ag4_f_02272.9860And273.8020
205 273.9232it broke my heart.275.1002 
207 275.2335And I d- cause I had seen him like, I- maybe a few months or a year before [whatever.]280.2309 
208LES_int_01280.0583[Oh,] no.280.8370
209LES_se0_ag4_f_02280.8510And281.4722
211 281.6891I felt like I didn't have a way of grieving.283.8760 
213 284.5334And fast forward, I was at a friend's wedding. She had a wedding,288.7194 
215 288.8780um,289.6370 
217 290.2535in290.9996 
219 291.1207someone's house. It was one of these home-grown weddings, and it was in someone's house.294.9111 
221 295.4427And296.2307 
223 296.5512th- this friend was a friend through friends, and we became friends.300.0623 
225 300.4069And her husband, it turns out to be, went to Morehouse.303.5402 
227 304.4029And her306.1035 
229 306.5931brother307.3299 
231 307.4371went to Morehouse.308.5702 
233 308.6868And her brother309.6100 
235 309.7453was Spike- is Spike Lee.311.2513 
237 312.2066And it turns [out,]313.3257 
238LES_int_01313.2294[Whoa.]313.6848
239LES_se0_ag4_f_02313.5856[that] Spike314.7746
240 315.3481and Kwame316.2349
242 316.8496were friends.317.8002 
244 318.3091And they were like, best friends.319.8439 
245LES_int_01319.8419Huh.320.2942
246LES_se0_ag4_f_02320.3735And her m-321.0449
248 321.1683and his-322.1827 
250 322.8634Kwame's mother officiated at the wedding, which was Spike's sister's [wedding.]327.1614 
251LES_int_01326.9049[Oh] my [gosh.]328.1033
252LES_se0_ag4_f_02327.9354[And]328.7234
253 330.3088she- <exhale>331.0922
255 331.3626It was like this- if- it's like it all came [back together. It was] really weird.334.9325 
256LES_int_01333.4841[Yeah.]334.3363
257 334.9325That's [amazing.]336.0236
258LES_se0_ag4_f_02335.2828[But what I found] out was, and this is their story so-338.3404
259 338.7368but,339.1984
261 339.3232um,339.9516 
263 340.4434because Spike has, I guess,342.9004 
265 343.5762there are three or four of them boys and one girl,346.2661 
266LES_int_01346.2801[Okay.]346.7137
267LES_se0_ag4_f_02346.6018[and] the /RD-NAME-4/ had three or four girls,349.1990
268 349.8832and one boy,350.6806
269LES_int_01350.7179Okay.351.1981
270LES_se0_ag4_f_02351.2028they put the families t-352.4711
272 352.6017together. And the fathers were both- are both [musicians.]355.5985 
273LES_int_01355.4261[Okay.]355.8597
274LES_se0_ag4_f_02355.8597Spike's father is still alive, but Kwame's isn't.357.8042
275 358.1725And they had the boy- the families came together and they played often.361.6848
276LES_int_01361.7151[Yeah.]362.1580
277LES_se0_ag4_f_02362.0741[So] as I was playing with364.4454
278 364.6201Kwame,365.2169
280 365.7671in junior high school, he was playing with Spike.368.3071 
282 368.5916Spike n- I knew in370.6292 
284 371.0349college, because Spike went to Morehouse.373.2392 
286 373.8967So it was like all of these little threads came [together,]377.5803 
287LES_int_01377.0015[Amazing.]377.7009
288LES_se0_ag4_f_02378.4977you know, like twenty years [later.]380.5307
289LES_int_01380.2795[Yeah.]381.1198
290LES_se0_ag4_f_02380.6846[You know, it] was so weird. [So] weird.382.9134
291LES_int_01381.9056[Yeah.]382.3765
292LES_se0_ag4_f_02383.2998But, um,384.3868
294 384.6381that was just a- a-385.7059 
296 385.8307a- story out387.0848 
297LES_int_01387.2889[Wow, that's interesting.]388.5816
298LES_se0_ag4_f_02387.3832[in- in space.]388.4557
299 388.7401But it was, it was a s- really kind of weird. But-391.2163
300LES_int_01391.2581So from that junior high school then, where did you go [on for high school?]394.3812
301LES_se0_ag4_f_02393.5043[<ts>]393.6209
303 393.7468[from junior high school] I went /RD-SCHOOL-5/.396.6704 
304LES_int_01396.6704Oh you [did?]397.3792
305LES_se0_ag4_f_02397.2766[Yeah.]398.1986
306LES_int_01397.9188[What was] that like?398.7581
307LES_se0_ag4_f_02399.1405Oh, it was great. There was a- um, an annex where you went for tenth [grade]403.7137
308LES_int_01403.4630[Right, right.]404.4060
309LES_se0_ag4_f_02403.9706[that] was down on- well, I don't know the name of that street. It's down below- past [Grand.]408.3291
310LES_int_01408.0686[Yeah.]408.9953
311LES_se0_ag4_f_02408.7168[But you know] that- [that-]409.9924
312LES_int_01409.4715[Like, Madison] or [something.]411.0346
313LES_se0_ag4_f_02410.5247[Madison.] But taking us into that neighborhood,413.3691
314 413.6862that neigborhood- we didn't even talk about that neighborhood. That neighborhood was so much fun417.5790
316 417.8775outside of the food,419.0186 
317LES_int_01419.4196[Yeah.]419.9246
318LES_se0_ag4_f_02419.5793[like, there used] to- there's a bialy shop down there, [now.]422.3106
319LES_int_01421.9702[Yeah.]422.5158
320LES_se0_ag4_f_02422.6323Right? [That bialy] shop used to be on Fourteenth Street.425.2243
321LES_int_01423.0194[Mm-hm.]423.3938
322LES_se0_ag4_f_02425.4807Between A426.6911
324 427.2327and B, where the pizzeria is.429.2471 
325LES_int_01429.2890Huh.429.6852
326LES_se0_ag4_f_02431.3547You know, [like, I wish I could recreate that block. I knew there was a434.5202
327LES_int_01431.7877[Yeah.]432.1514
328LES_se0_ag4_f_02434.8745/Shraff's- Shriff's?/ Candy store.437.6250
330 438.1612A toy store, there was a Woolworths, there was a bialy shop.441.8437 
332 443.1539I'm trying to remember what was on that street.444.8499 
334 445.4002But, um,446.4540 
336 446.6825so I went to school down there, everybody was down there. It was kind of cool because the Essex Markets were still alive and [well,]453.2092 
337LES_int_01453.1620[Right.]453.5770
338LES_se0_ag4_f_02453.5770on both sides of the [street.]455.3302
339LES_int_01455.0784[Right.]455.6333
340LES_se0_ag4_f_02455.6706<ts> We used to go down there-457.1254
342 457.3492not- we didn't do our shopping, we did some but I don't remember my mother going down there. I'm trying to remember where did she shop?463.0087 
344 463.4650My mother used to sew,464.7770 
346 465.0504so she [would buy-] there were466.9383 
347LES_int_01465.5907[Oh.]466.5186
348LES_se0_ag4_f_02467.0502tons of fabric [stores]468.9253
349LES_int_01468.2998[Right.]469.0692
350LES_se0_ag4_f_02469.5262down there.470.2763
351LES_int_01470.2763[Yes.]470.8545
352LES_se0_ag4_f_02470.4083[She would] buy471.6192
353 472.0848fabric and make our clothes, and she [would buy yarn.] She was476.1150
354LES_int_01474.5701[Wow.]475.3255
355LES_se0_ag4_f_02476.3461a- this huge knitter, and there was477.7916
357 478.0201these yarn stores. One479.4829 
359 480.0192right on the corner of Essex and482.3273 
361 482.4521between Delancey and the block south,484.2749 
363 484.6401across the street from Seward Park. Cause we went passed there the other day and I was like, oh, wow.488.6365 
365 488.8914<ts> [Bell Yarns] was there, Sunray Yarns,491.2408 
366LES_int_01489.0726[Oh.]489.6415
367LES_se0_ag4_f_02491.7864and we used to go down and buy [yarns.]493.4970
368LES_int_01493.3205[Amazing.]494.1166
369LES_se0_ag4_f_02493.6503[And-] school, I mean,495.0771
370 495.4362high school was kind of interesting. I did,497.4225
372 497.9355um,498.7075 
374 499.4356I-499.8693 
376 500.1118I w- wanted to be an actress, so I502.4012 
378 502.5878went to-503.7589 
380 504.6161I auditioned for this school, it was a performing arts school but it was part time.509.9305 
381LES_int_01509.9772Okay.510.3922
382LES_se0_ag4_f_02510.4015So it-510.8339
384 510.9598it's still there, someone just told me recently it was still there. /RD-SCHOOL-8/.515.3522 
386 515.6646It's in /RD-SCHOOL-5/.516.9011 
388 517.3420[So I]518.0321 
389LES_int_01517.4492[Sounds familiar.]518.5232
390LES_se0_ag4_f_02518.4238[did] my academics in the morning at /RD-SCHOOL-3/.522.5038
391LES_int_01522.5038Okay.523.0154
392LES_se0_ag4_f_02523.0294<ts> And then I didn't really kind of mingle with525.8831
394 525.9857everyone,526.6665 
396 527.0920but also by that time, I was younger than everyone.530.5867 
398 530.9138So with my birthday being in November and having534.0506 
400 534.3584gone through this accelerated program in junior high school,537.5611 
402 538.0507I graduated from school when I was sixteen.540.3955 
404 540.8478So541.5659 
406 541.8457I was kind of young and having- I think, this is m-544.9685 
408 545.1830my view, having been exposed to547.5611 
410 548.6649so much with so few boundaries,551.0384 
412 551.5559I didn't really get into too much trouble.553.5610 
413LES_int_01553.8908Right.554.4690
414LES_se0_ag4_f_02554.6228Cause I had seen so much and I wasn't really interested, so [since nothing] was a secret what was there to get [into?]560.2398
415LES_int_01557.6391[Right.]558.1800
417 560.0591[R- yeah, yeah.]560.9731 
418LES_se0_ag4_f_02560.8378[So] I didn't really562.2973
419 562.5398get into [too much.] (laughing)564.5409
420LES_int_01563.4944[Yeah.]564.1954
422 564.3757[Okay.]564.9119 
423LES_se0_ag4_f_02565.5508I do remember when they built Haven Plaza. I'm going off on a [tangent. But I do remember] when they built Hazen Plaza [downtown.]571.7691
424LES_int_01568.9680[No, that's okay.]569.8120
426 571.6852[Yeah.]572.0945 
427LES_se0_ag4_f_02572.3279That was considered,573.2892
429 573.3918you know573.9230 
431 574.2800middle574.9040 
433 575.3456class, middle income.576.9310 
435 577.5918Ha-ha.578.4311 
436LES_int_01578.7016[<laugh>]580.0958
437LES_se0_ag4_f_02578.9627[<laugh>]580.1937
438 580.3849And now I think that it's looked on as if it's no better583.6483
440 583.8115or different from the projects, right?585.6183 
442 586.5153I think so.587.4862 
444 587.8722[Um,]588.5810 
445LES_int_01587.9375[Mm-hm.]588.4691
446LES_se0_ag4_f_02589.2931you know, it's interesting590.5568
448 590.7573i- perspective.591.8997 
449LES_int_01591.8997Yeah.592.5618
450LES_se0_ag4_f_02592.7577I'm trying to think what else do I remember. Do you have any other questions?595.8672
451LES_int_01595.8672Um, I'm enjoying getting sort of y- your trajectory. So you went away to college600.2636
452LES_se0_ag4_f_02600.3849<ts> [In seventy-four.]601.6939
453LES_int_01600.4781[and-]600.6952
454 601.6939[Okay.]602.2834
455LES_se0_ag4_f_02601.9643[So a] lot of the- the unrest604.6082
456 605.0185that I saw,606.2495
458 606.9523like, I was too young to get into like, the flower power- I missed [all of that.]611.8518 
459LES_int_01610.9738[Right. <laugh>]612.7672
460LES_se0_ag4_f_02612.5845[I] missed all of it. I was really young, I was like eleven when they were like, goo- well I was wearing go-go [boots.]618.5697
461LES_int_01618.4765[Right.]619.0640
462LES_se0_ag4_f_02618.8728[So] I didn't have the advantage of getting into any of the st- [fun stuff that people were] doing b- at that time.624.6981
463LES_int_01622.2552[<laugh>]623.5149
464 624.8820[Right.]625.2477
465LES_se0_ag4_f_02625.1478[Um,] and by the time- at that time, and by the time I628.8548
466 630.1462by the time631.0870
468 631.4647I got into to college, people were pulling back from it.634.1179 
470 635.1105They [had- cause] that was seventy-four.636.9414 
471LES_int_01635.3896[Yeah.]635.7860
473 636.8491[Right.]637.3367 
474LES_se0_ag4_f_02637.2035[So] there was still, you know, a lot of the drugs and stuff, but not640.5106
475 640.8725the way it was [in the sixties] and early [seventies.] Yeah.644.2711
476LES_int_01641.7019[Right.]642.2381
478 642.9767[Right, right.]643.8095 
479 644.4903And so how was it- so did you come back to the neighborhood right after [college?]648.1587
480LES_se0_ag4_f_02647.8976[No,] I didn't come back until nineteen eighty-653.1334
481 654.5136oh jee,655.3949
483 655.8832eighty-five.656.8158 
484LES_int_01656.8438Oh, okay. So you had a- a break there.658.8022
485LES_se0_ag4_f_02658.8069Yeah, d- [I was-]660.0052
486LES_int_01659.4364[What were you doing?]660.2803
487LES_se0_ag4_f_02660.2151[I-] from seventy-four to seventy-eight,662.5452
488 663.1234I was in college. From664.2752
490 664.5829seventy-eight to eighty-one,667.0123 
492 667.5525<ts> I worked at City Corp669.1402 
494 669.2638in their credit card division,671.0512 
496 671.1656in Towson, Maryland.672.9742 
497LES_int_01673.1607[Oh.]673.8312
498LES_se0_ag4_f_02673.4825[From eighty-one] to eighty-three, I worked for the Federal Reserve Board677.1019
499LES_int_01677.2121[Oh.]677.7611
500LES_se0_ag4_f_02677.5292[in DC,]678.5864
501LES_int_01678.5864Cool.678.9967
502LES_se0_ag4_f_02679.0107under the Reagan administration.680.7566
504 681.1976Um, they were d- it's when the Fed had to- was mandated by Congress to start charging,686.1623 
506 686.5773<ts> uh, the banks that they support for their services that they provide.690.6045 
508 691.0484And then from eighty-three to eighty-four?693.6128 
510 694.0827Eighty-three to eighty-four, or eighty-four to eighty-five,696.1064 
512 696.6519I was in California, in Los Angeles. I lived out there for a year. [Hated it.]700.7733 
513LES_int_01699.8081[Oh, really?]700.6121
514 700.8932[<laugh>]701.5565
515LES_se0_ag4_f_02701.4714[And] then moved [back.]703.0459
516LES_int_01702.5159[And then you moved back.]703.4159
517LES_se0_ag4_f_02703.3086[Mm-hm.]703.9521
518LES_int_01703.8402[And] did you move back in with your family?705.7950
519LES_se0_ag4_f_02705.9618No.706.3188
521 706.9317I moved- <laugh> no.709.0993 
522LES_int_01709.1733No. [<laugh>]710.4509
523LES_se0_ag4_f_02709.7515[I wasn't going] back to the projects.711.3275
524LES_int_01711.5747[Okay.]711.9337
525LES_se0_ag4_f_02711.6819[I will] say this,712.7031
526 713.1181I hated the [projects.]714.3431
527LES_int_01714.2872[You did?]714.7815
528LES_se0_ag4_f_02714.5856[I] absolutely hated the concrete, the brick,717.1455
529 717.5337and even though it was,719.2612
531 719.5643at that time, a relatively safe place,721.9704 
533 722.5113I never l- warmed to it. I always thought it was scary.725.3223 
534LES_int_01725.3363<ts> Oh.725.9798
535LES_se0_ag4_f_02726.0544You know, I remember going down like, the stairs and thinking, this is creepy.729.3504
537 729.5043You know, I never-731.0267 
539 731.4097never liked it.732.4313 
540LES_int_01732.4593I [see.]732.9443
541LES_se0_ag4_f_02732.8883[And] from our apartment734.3618
542 734.4830we could see735.6254
544 736.6360downtown, the World Trade Center. It was when they were built in- from my740.5892 
546 740.9958bedroom.741.4863 
548 741.7559[And from the] living room you could see the Empire State Building.744.5903 
549LES_int_01741.7559[Yeah.]742.0770
550LES_se0_ag4_f_02744.9760You know, and I just- I always- I /remem-/747.0930
552 747.2352very vivid- vivid memories of standing in my bedroom751.3023 
554 751.6520and looking752.3704 
556 752.9896out toward the south,754.6169 
558 754.7289and across the street at my school,756.6099 
560 756.9204and wondering what was over that horizon.759.2903 
562 759.5397And wondering what life would hold for me.761.3209 
563LES_int_01761.3256[Oh.]761.9504
564LES_se0_ag4_f_02761.4515[I just]761.8571
565 762.2348absolutely-762.9996
567 763.2327and it wasn't-764.0254 
569 765.1492it wasn't that clear, [you know. I'm articulating] it better than I did as a [child.]769.6009 
570LES_int_01766.4634[Yeah.]767.1131
572 769.3212[Right.]769.8694 
573LES_se0_ag4_f_02769.9553But I just-770.6548
575 770.7900I remember having-772.0437 
577 772.4773trying to envision my life. That's what it was. And not being able to see myself past forty,777.8030 
579 778.1734cause I couldn't imagine779.4884 
581 779.8148what it would be [like.]780.9852 
582LES_int_01780.8453[Right, right.]781.8292
583LES_se0_ag4_f_02781.3349[But in some] ways,782.7744
584LES_int_01782.7838[Right.]783.1848
585LES_se0_ag4_f_02782.9796[that] was probably a blessing for me,784.9147
586 785.2831because if I had to imagine my life in the confines of the limitations that I saw,790.3185
588 790.6774I would've had a very small dream.792.7138 
590 793.2501But793.7303 
592 793.8376by not allowing myself to [have] a [dream,]796.6580 
593LES_int_01795.3345[Hm.]795.6152
595 796.3223[Yeah. <laugh>]797.5673 
596LES_se0_ag4_f_02796.8916[you know,]797.5013
597 797.7165not that I didn't have a dream, but not being able to formulate, [it allowed] for801.6513
598LES_int_01800.8487[Yeah.]801.2434
599LES_se0_ag4_f_02801.9637almost endless [possibilites.]803.8039
600LES_int_01803.5059[Yeah.]804.0934
601LES_se0_ag4_f_02804.2006So- and that's what happened. [That's kind of my-]806.8259
602LES_int_01805.7767[That's great.]806.4855
603LES_se0_ag4_f_02807.2502the way I moved through life, for me,809.5996
604LES_int_01809.7162[Yeah.]810.1032
605LES_se0_ag4_f_02809.9820[was,] um,811.4739
606 811.7619very much by happenstance. That I allowed things to happen to me.815.4711
607LES_int_01815.5902Okay.816.0658
608LES_se0_ag4_f_02816.1590Um,816.7816
610 816.9937but I must say that I g- I-819.0488 
612 819.4777I carried the Lower East Side with me wherever. If you look822.8098 
614 822.9410wherever I lived, I always chose places825.8273 
616 826.4288that,827.1423 
618 828.0236as much as possible, would look like the Lower East Side.831.0585 
619LES_int_01831.2214[Huh.]831.5102
620LES_se0_ag4_f_02831.3569[So] it'd have to have a diverse [community,]833.2814
621LES_int_01833.2068[Yeah.]833.6498
622LES_se0_ag4_f_02833.7337<ts> it had to be834.5264
624 834.6523pretty much in t- in the city.836.3263 
626 836.7925Um, and it had to have,838.9222 
628 839.5237you know, a-840.3118 
630 840.5542I had to have the ability to walk.842.1583 
631LES_int_01842.4240[Mm.]842.9421
632LES_se0_ag4_f_02842.4660[So in] Atlanta, I lived in- I can't remember the name of that-846.3623
633 846.5494of that-847.1090
635 847.2178area of town now,848.2840 
637 848.6291<ts> but it was always- it became like, the hot spot. Um,852.6276 
639 853.8875what was the name of it?855.0620 
641 857.0996<ts> It's off of Piedmont Park.858.8498 
643 859.2666But that became,860.5582 
645 860.8427you know, where all the college kids were- were living, and it [became] the hip864.6748 
646LES_int_01863.5319[Right.]863.9121
647LES_se0_ag4_f_02865.2059[place to- the Highlands.]867.0710
648LES_int_01865.4225[The hip place to live.]866.4706
649LES_se0_ag4_f_02867.4441That [became the hip] place869.1553
650LES_int_01867.8590[Okay.]868.3859
651LES_se0_ag4_f_02869.4758to [live.]870.1566
652LES_int_01870.0214[Okay.]870.4503
653LES_se0_ag4_f_02870.6648Um, when I lived in872.6255
655 872.8004Baltimore, I lived right downtown on Biddle Street,875.8820 
657 876.1984Which was876.7813 
659 876.9258the hip place, it was [kind of] edgy.878.8329 
660LES_int_01877.9403[Mm.]878.2734
661LES_se0_ag4_f_02879.0288It was the same thing, I mean, it was all- it was [very] consistent882.2362
662LES_int_01881.0052[Right.]881.5263
663LES_se0_ag4_f_02882.6652in terms of883.5791
665 883.7550where I feel comfortable.885.6062 
666LES_int_01885.7181[Yeah.]886.1378
667LES_se0_ag4_f_02886.0772[It-] when I lived in887.6486
668 887.7791DC, I lived in, um,890.3929
670 890.9393Fort-891.8486 
672 892.9630oh God, I'm trying to think of the name of the street.895.2758 
674 895.6995It's right across the bridge from the national897.9877 
676 898.0902park.898.7291 
678 899.3399[I don't remember.]900.0333 
679LES_int_01899.3399[Huh. Mm-hm.]900.4124
680LES_se0_ag4_f_02900.2585[But it] was the same901.4459
681 901.6900thing, [you know,] where it's very diverse community904.6829
682LES_int_01902.2582[Yeah.]902.6863
683LES_se0_ag4_f_02905.5409kind of on the edge, some people would say a little dangerous,908.2581
685 908.4493always.909.0601 
686LES_int_01909.1021Yeah.909.5404
687LES_se0_ag4_f_02909.5497And then when I, um,911.9045
689 912.7298lived- when I moved back,914.6083 
691 914.7482my915.4869 
693 915.7588high school teacher,916.9059 
695 917.7825who had always been like a surrogate mother to me,920.5383 
696LES_int_01920.5383Mm-hm.920.9206
697LES_se0_ag4_f_02921.1864um, had an apartment up in Harlem. And she said, you know, I'm going to do my PhD in DC,926.5195
699 926.9298my son is living in my two bedroom apartment, go on and move in there.930.2252 
701 930.4910I mean, I later found out that she was trying to set me up with her son.933.2991 
702LES_int_01933.5865[<laugh>]935.0507
703LES_se0_ag4_f_02933.8430[But, it t- and we became] really good [friends-]936.5328
704LES_int_01936.2903[Didn't] work? [<laugh>]937.7822
705LES_se0_ag4_f_02937.0178[didn't work out,] no.938.2394
706LES_int_01938.6205[<laugh>]939.2286
707LES_se0_ag4_f_02938.8443[It didn't] work out.939.5656
708LES_int_01940.0613[That's funny.]940.9380
709LES_se0_ag4_f_02940.1126[But, um,]941.2177
710 941.3623<ts> so I lived there. And then she had another apartment, as people are wont to do, on945.9220
712 946.3836Central Park West, so I lived there for a while.948.5646 
714 948.9702And I put my name on the waiting list, since- cause you always go [back to your neighborhood.]952.3342 
715LES_int_01951.3250[To Stuyvesant.]952.2146
716LES_se0_ag4_f_02952.6020You always go- I think you always go home.954.4567
718 954.9334And now with my son, I'm doing the same thing. I'm- I'm-958.6998 
720 959.4645I am tickled that,961.5873 
722 961.7789um, he has the opportunity to see what I saw,965.3852 
724 965.9493to have the experience that I [have.]967.8698 
725LES_int_01967.7718[Yeah.]968.2475
726LES_se0_ag4_f_02968.2475It's in some ways it's unfortunate cause Stuyvesant Town is not that diverse.971.9548
727 972.4341You know, it's mostly white.973.7010
728LES_int_01973.7384[Mm-hm.]974.1767
729LES_se0_ag4_f_02973.8783[And] I think that,975.9217
730 976.1025um,976.6946
732 977.6273<ts>977.7159 
734 978.3967I think he feels it.979.5518 
736 979.6823I feel b-980.2232 
738 980.3398you know, I feel it for him.981.9299 
739LES_int_01982.0651[Uh-huh.]982.5221
740LES_se0_ag4_f_02982.1770[And he feels] it. We talk about it. We've been talking about it since he was985.2772
741 985.4217four.985.8367
742LES_int_01985.8367[<laugh>]987.3895
743LES_se0_ag4_f_02986.3963[/You know./] (laughing)987.1284
744 987.5561And he's sensitive to it, but989.6676
746 989.8828[I think he's also lucky.]991.2351 
747LES_int_01989.8828[So how will his-]990.9629
748 991.3635how will his experience be different from yours, I mean, in terms of the neighborhood? What's-995.8734
750 996.0086i- i- it's obviously very different now then it was when you grew up there,999.4974 
752 1000.2139so what will he-1001.2571 
754 1001.3644what will his experience be like, do you think?1003.3957 
755LES_se0_ag4_f_021003.6772I don't think- I- i- I don't know.1006.0572
757 1006.2884Um,1006.9516 
759 1007.7292the first six years- cause he's six,1009.5288 
761 1009.8822the first six years is- is that he's1012.1250 
763 1012.3116kind of in a bubble,1013.4260 
765 1013.8177you know, in some ways. He's [not-]1015.4228 
766LES_int_011015.3558[Mm-hm.]1015.7195
767LES_se0_ag4_f_021015.7521I mean, I was kind of scrappy.1017.3906
769 1018.1942You- I remember, um,1020.3438 
771 1022.6180I remembered1023.6672 
773 1023.8764as- as much as I say there d- you know d- and I'm kind of backtracking now,1028.9816 
775 1029.6350i- I don't know how to- to express this,1031.4203 
777 1032.1757in hindsight it was1033.8925 
779 1034.0815th-1034.2401 
781 1034.4079it wasn't1035.4244 
783 1036.4689as bad as it is today, in terms of the guns and the violence.1039.7423 
785 1040.4031But it was that it had an edge to [it.]1042.9537 
786LES_int_011042.8745[Right.]1043.3432
787LES_se0_ag4_f_021043.3501You know, and I felt that,1044.8469
789 1044.9541and I think my sister felt that. [And we] weren't-1047.6900 
790LES_int_011046.8180[Mm-hm.]1047.2936
791LES_se0_ag4_f_021048.2775I think that we weren't-1049.3282
793 1049.6997we were part of the community, but we weren't part of the community.1052.4968 
795 1052.9631You know, a lot of the people that I grew with, I see them now, I say hi, but1057.4382 
797 1057.7739we were never close, we were never friends. I was always more school- bound to [school than I was]1063.0050 
798LES_int_011061.9978[Okay.]1062.6523
799LES_se0_ag4_f_021063.5167to the [projects.]1064.7546
800LES_int_011064.5751[Right.]1065.0834
801LES_se0_ag4_f_021065.1114But at the same time I was very much bound to the neighborhood. I loved the [neighborhood.]1069.3819
802LES_int_011069.2592[Oh, interesting.]1070.2544
803LES_se0_ag4_f_021070.1094[So] my son, I don't- I think is more bound to the neighborhood,1073.7125
804 1074.3466to the community,1075.3248
805LES_int_011075.3445[Yeah.]1075.6523
806LES_se0_ag4_f_021075.6243[you] know. W- we interact more,1077.9831
807 1078.5100um,1079.1295
809 1079.2321and not that I didn't, but I think that it's different.1082.2723 
811 1082.6546I'm trying to figure out how.1084.2387 
813 1084.8682I think that1085.8986 
815 1086.2485what he's seeing is a more affluent1088.5429 
817 1089.0822[neighborhood outside] of Stuyvesant [Town.]1091.9093 
818LES_int_011089.6837[Yeah.]1090.3193
820 1091.7909[Yeah.]1092.2437 
821LES_se0_ag4_f_021092.3969You know, there are million dollar [co-ops down there.]1095.3644
822LES_int_011094.5791[The gentrification- the gentrification] that's [w-]1096.3640
823LES_se0_ag4_f_021096.2991[Very much so.]1097.5378
824LES_int_011096.5232[what is happening.]1097.1717
826 1097.3633[Yeah.]1097.8559 
827LES_se0_ag4_f_021098.0617You know, um,1099.1388
829 1099.5199it is- it is becoming less diverse,1102.0005 
831 1102.4062but that-1103.1663 
833 1104.3227and it had become less diverse, because,1106.8540 
835 1107.2457um,1107.9016 
837 1108.1829the Jews, the Italians, the Poles, moved out of the [projects.]1111.7121 
838LES_int_011111.5489[Right.]1112.0012
839LES_se0_ag4_f_021112.0338You know, and it became mostly black and [Hispanic,]1114.6531
840LES_int_011114.5365[Yeah.]1114.9487
841LES_se0_ag4_f_021114.9487right.1115.3942
842LES_int_011115.3942Yeah.1115.7395
843LES_se0_ag4_f_021115.7582The P- uh, the Poles moved, and the Eastern Europeans1118.5553
845 1118.8024moved out of the Lower East Side. There are still1121.3197 
847 1121.5436a [group.]1122.3176 
848LES_int_011121.9586[A little] pocket. [Yeah.]1123.3024
849LES_se0_ag4_f_021122.9145[<ts> But] not,1123.9158
850 1124.1168you know,1124.7612
852 1124.8582they've either moved down to and are still on Grand Street- but even that's changing.1129.7710 
853LES_int_011129.9553[Yeah.]1130.3539
854LES_se0_ag4_f_021130.0415[A lot of] people are dying off, their children are not holding on to those apartments,1134.1122
855LES_int_011134.1355Right.1134.5607
856LES_se0_ag4_f_021134.5831um, or they're moving. A lot [of people] move to Florida.1137.2584
857LES_int_011136.0740[Right.]1136.4136
858LES_se0_ag4_f_021137.5568You know, a lot of people got their Archie Bunker [and are k- in Queens.]1141.1086
859LES_int_011139.8649[Right, right. <laugh>]1141.1786
860LES_se0_ag4_f_021141.6169Um, so1142.8945
862 1143.5302I think that- so it became,1145.7435 
864 1145.9067especially on the northern part of the Lower East Side1148.4188 
866 1148.5493black and [Hispanic]1149.9156 
867LES_int_011149.8689[Yeah.]1150.2071
868LES_se0_ag4_f_021150.2886and lots of drugs.1151.4293
870 1151.6890So it became very, um,1154.3120 
872 1154.9508<ts> um,1155.8419 
874 1156.8707i- it became1158.3675 
876 1158.8207less diverse.1159.8975 
877LES_int_011160.2326[Okay.]1160.5963
878LES_se0_ag4_f_021160.3679[It was] very diverse when I was growing, it became less [diverse,]1162.7120
879LES_int_011162.6607[Right.]1163.0729
880LES_se0_ag4_f_021163.1969and then now it's- the- the group is changing.1166.1532
882 1166.4563Right?1166.9273 
883LES_int_011166.9446Mm-hm.1167.3083
884LES_se0_ag4_f_021167.3223So it's not,1168.5673
886 1168.8910in this case,1169.9155 
888 1170.0688you know, it's- i-1171.0060 
890 1171.2977people are being displaced, yeah.1172.9638 
892 1173.5225Um,1174.3657 
894 1175.9981the neighorhood is- is changing. I-1178.1383 
896 1178.4601[in some ways it's k-]1179.3174 
897LES_int_011178.4741[What was your] opinion on that? Like, uh- uh, gentrification and,1182.0306
898 1182.2404you know, the fact that some folks do get displaced as a result of that?1185.3969
899LES_se0_ag4_f_021186.4374I think that1187.8277
901 1188.3269it's a bigger question-1189.0482 
903 1189.1728it's- it's more- that's a big question.1191.9100 
904LES_int_011191.9566Yeah.1192.3354
905LES_se0_ag4_f_021192.8192And it's interesting because in this, where we're sitting now,1196.4830
907 1196.9027<ts> um, the people in this side is-1199.1915 
909 1199.3407they're apart of community development. We deal with a lot of community [groups.]1203.0602 
910LES_int_011202.9538[Mm-hm.]1203.4226
911LES_se0_ag4_f_021203.4854And we have these discussions all the time.1205.5311
912LES_int_011205.5300/?/1205.9842
913LES_se0_ag4_f_021206.0627It's a very difficult question because1208.7112
915 1209.1215on the one side, there's an absolute1211.3724 
917 1211.4797need for affordable housing.1213.8298 
918LES_int_011213.9370Right.1214.3287
919LES_se0_ag4_f_021214.3753Um,1215.1477
921 1215.7726people deserve-1216.7988 
923 1217.2138I mean, this-1217.7500 
925 1218.1593for me,1218.9111 
927 1219.1209personally,1219.9136 
929 1221.0187I would- I- I-1222.5049 
931 1222.9199I saw this coming a long time ago and I was disheartened1226.3797 
933 1226.7528when- when, um, chains1229.0690 
935 1229.8756started coming into the city.1231.4890 
937 1231.6204You know, Gaps and to me this is all part of that movement.1235.2367 
938LES_int_011235.2367[Okay.]1235.6967
939LES_se0_ag4_f_021235.5731[And] New York,1236.6962
940 1236.8361it's losing, or has lost, its uniqueness.1239.8144
941LES_int_011240.0895[Mm-hm.]1240.4205
942LES_se0_ag4_f_021240.2900[In] terms of having individual stores and- and real communities.1243.7732
943LES_int_011244.1440Right.1244.5634
944LES_se0_ag4_f_021245.5205At the same time, is it better to have better to have drug-infested neighborhoods?1249.4886
946 1250.2487It's like there's no middle [ground.]1252.1032 
947LES_int_011251.8281[Yeah.]1252.4389
948LES_se0_ag4_f_021252.5322And [I don't- how] do you find that.1254.7611
949LES_int_011252.8772[How do you find that?]1253.7683
950LES_se0_ag4_f_021254.9243That's the1255.7030
952 1255.8056the [question.] So1257.2441 
953LES_int_011256.0141[Right]1256.5736
954LES_se0_ag4_f_021257.7534yeah. D-1258.3689
956 1258.4808it's sad1259.4693 
957LES_int_011259.8330[Yeah.]1260.3786
958LES_se0_ag4_f_021260.0895[and] I think that we need to find middle ground.1263.3850
959 1263.5389I don't know how you do that.1264.7279
961 1264.8818I really don't know how you answer that [question.]1266.9241 
962LES_int_011266.8309[Yeah.]1267.2866
963 1267.4370I have no- I don't either <laugh>.1269.3194