Line	Speaker	St Time	Content	En Time
1	LES_int_01	0.8112	Okay.	0.9736
3		1.2722	So, I mean do you- If you don't mind,	3.1380
5		3.2434	just telling me a little bit about yourself, li- and start with when and where you were born.	7.4378
6	LES_se0_ag4_m_01	7.6046	Okay. I was born on May the fifth, nineteen twenty-nine.	10.2607
7	LES_int_01	10.2607	Mm-hm.	10.6997
8	LES_se0_ag4_m_01	10.6997	At the Jewish Hospital in Brooklyn, Park Ave- uh,	12.9931
9		13.0809	Park Place and Franklin Avenue.	14.4237
10	LES_int_01	14.5686	Okay.	14.9319
11	LES_se0_ag4_m_01	15.3325	Um.	15.7584
13		16.7945	I-	17.0535
15		17.1808	I spent	17.7735
17		18.5418	most of my life	19.5413
19		19.7301	the early life,	20.4413
21		20.6855	first sixteen years of it anyway,	22.0350
23		22.5003	in Brooklyn.	23.1924
24	LES_int_01	23.3680	Okay.	23.6446
25	LES_se0_ag4_m_01	24.0002	Um.	24.2812
27		24.4274	I went to public school forty-four, /RD-SCHOOL-3/ High School,	27.0236
29		27.6338	and then I-	28.4636
31		28.6963	you know, I went away to college.	30.0660
33		30.8299	Um.	31.1285
35		31.3919	After grad school, I went into the Air Force, and	33.9894
37		35.4207	I-	35.6007
39		35.7236	you know, I had a ROTC commission, so I had to	37.7240
41		38.0884	pay back that couple of years.	39.4406
42	LES_int_01	39.8046	Yeah.	40.0788
43	LES_se0_ag4_m_01	40.1738	And while I was in, and just before I	42.4524
45		42.5533	you know, got	42.9748
47		43.1109	um,	43.4007
49		45.5855	this is	45.8226
51		46.0465	just before I came out of the service, um.	48.0748
53		48.6060	Um.	49.0582
55		50.1982	I gave my mother enough money to buy an apartment here on the Lower East Side, and that was in Nineteen,	54.4963
57		55.1592	um,	55.5675
59		56.5406	fifty-six.	57.3616
60	LES_int_01	57.8841	Okay.	58.1606
61	LES_se0_ag4_m_01	58.2880	And, so she bought this co-op.	59.4821
63		60.6192	The incredible thing about that, and I think that relates very much to this whole thing about Lower East Side issue.	65.5743
64	LES_int_01	65.7236	Yeah.	65.9738
65	LES_se0_ag4_m_01	66.4172	Um.	66.8651
67		67.0538	The Co-op, I- we paid twenty seven hundred dollars for it.	69.5372
69		70.2089	It is now worth four hundred and fifty thousand.	72.6060
70	LES_int_01	73.2909	Where is it?	73.7328
71	LES_se0_ag4_m_01	74.0050	You know. So, what that means	75.4275
73		75.5416	quite specifically is that-	76.8543
75		77.2275	that	77.3592
77		77.7631	poor people are being marginalized right out of their neighborhood.	80.3255
79		80.4396	pretty quickly.	80.9489
80	LES_int_01	81.0982	[Yeah.]	81.4714
81	LES_se0_ag4_m_01	81.2738	[Okay.]	81.5021
82		82.0421	But anyway, that	82.5602
84		82.8631	you know, the- after the - I	84.0836
86		84.2680	I didn't live in it	85.0451
88		85.2470	for a long time, because after	87.0455
90		87.2211	the Air Force,	87.9455
92		88.5382	you know I got married and I lived in-	90.1802
94		90.9309	in Harlem for a while,	92.2114
96		92.8172	then I moved back to Washington	94.4855
98		94.9728	uh, for several years.	96.2636
100		96.9573	And [then,]	97.4885
101	LES_int_01	97.4051	[Washington,]	98.1104
102		98.2465	[uh,]	98.4309
103	LES_se0_ag4_m_01	98.3475	[<ts>] Washington [DC]	99.2562
104	LES_int_01	99.0675	[DC.]	99.4889
105	LES_se0_ag4_m_01	99.4889	Yeah, I went to /RD-SCHOOL-7/ in [Washington DC. I hadn't]	101.7104
106	LES_int_01	100.7577	[Ah. Mm-hm.]	101.4382
107	LES_se0_ag4_m_01	101.9519	I hadn't mentioned that.	102.8080
108	LES_int_01	102.9880	Yeah.	103.1592
109	LES_se0_ag4_m_01	103.4314	Both for graduate and undergraduate [school.]	105.1333
110	LES_int_01	104.9094	[Okay] /?/.	105.7125
111	LES_se0_ag4_m_01	105.9894	And uh, I moved back to Washington DC, then, then eventually	109.0231
113		109.1109	moved back to New York.	110.4265
115		111.0543	And um.	111.7787
117		113.3811	I- I had a major in psychology,	115.2865
119		115.4095	and I couldn't.	116.2333
121		117.1597	My first job was in /RD-WORK-8/, which is a mental institution in Washington DC.	121.2470
123		121.7504	And I couldn't stand	123.3397
125		123.7436	uh,	124.0070
127		124.1080	being locked in to go to work.	125.8333
128	LES_int_01	126.5138	Mm.	126.9002
129	LES_se0_ag4_m_01	126.9968	A- and over- I was really overcome by that whole process.	129.9280
130	LES_int_01	130.2616	Yeah.	130.5558
131	LES_se0_ag4_m_01	130.6085	And and it- i- i- interestingly, what it did to me was i- it um,	134.1806
133		135.9762	Somehow, transmorphed into-	137.9607
135		138.1451	into, um,	139.0538
137		140.1016	a feeling that I really	141.4450
139		141.5855	couldn't help those people.	142.9948
141		143.7894	Because	144.4260
143		144.6192	you know, they were	145.1724
144	LES_int_01	145.4314	[Yeah.]	145.8953
145	LES_se0_ag4_m_01	145.6713	[Institutionalized]	146.7118
146		147.0323	i- i- in a locked in	148.2528
148		148.4109	sort of basis, with mental illness	150.4436
150		150.7816	which meant, they were really sick.	151.7460
151	LES_int_01	151.9260	That's right.	152.3694
152	LES_se0_ag4_m_01	152.3738	And- and I just felt I	153.5855
154		153.8314	you know,	154.0992
156		154.2528	me,	154.5909
158		154.7928	I- I'm not a	155.3109
160		155.7719	PhD or an MD, I'm just a guy that took a masters in	158.6284
162		158.9226	tests and measurements.	159.9982
164		160.5689	a- and so, that, you know, I was doing that sort of routinized thing you know a-	163.6318
166		163.7635	works-	164.2114
168		164.4020	works above you, MMPS, all that kind of [stuff.]	167.3241
169	LES_int_01	167.1924	[Yeah.]	167.4953
170	LES_se0_ag4_m_01	167.8377	And as I said, I can't really help people like this, and it's beginning to depress me so,	171.8884
172		172.4504	I took	173.0036
174		173.6314	the training	174.4743
176		175.1065	that I received	175.9743
178		176.5757	and	176.8962
180		177.8226	turned it into	178.6348
182		178.8982	a marketing skill.	180.2241
183	LES_int_01	181.0802	Hm.	181.2382
184	LES_se0_ag4_m_01	181.2382	Mkay.	181.6143
185		182.1938	I became a marketing researcher.	183.8928
187		184.1563	I did	184.5119
189		184.7533	really very good work here in New York City, and that	186.9353
190	LES_int_01	187.0758	Hm.	187.3963
191	LES_se0_ag4_m_01	187.4885	lot of	187.8206
193		188.5450	And then I moved from that	189.8797
195		190.3319	into	190.8850
197		190.9772	the advertising agency, was the first Black to be	193.8996
199		194.2596	um,	194.6504
201		194.7338	an account executive on an important account at a major advertising agency in New York City.	199.2207
203		199.7592	Um.	200.2070
205		200.6679	And uh,	201.3440
207		202.3143	you know, formed an adg-	203.2055
209		203.3109	a organization called /RD-WORK-9/ that was committed	206.9164
211		207.3905	in the um	208.1720
213		208.3740	in the sixties, the mid-sixties	210.2120
215		210.6291	to try to increase the	212.0339
217		212.4115	presence of	212.9779
219		213.3642	blacks	213.8384
221		213.9745	in the	214.2247
223		214.3828	advertising [business.]	215.4568
224	LES_int_01	215.0398	[Mm-hm.]	215.3998
225		215.5447	Mm-hm.	215.8564
226	LES_se0_ag4_m_01	216.3349	And	216.6115
228		218.0866	eh- I- I must admit, I- I was b-	219.9437
230		220.2115	I don't	220.4223
232		220.5101	for some ex- inexplicable reason, I was	222.7224
234		222.9858	pretty successful	223.7760
236		224.2458	as a marketing executive.	225.4751
238		225.9185	And, and then I aggressively recruited by the /RD-WORK-6/	229.4653
239	LES_int_01	229.9330	Mm-hm.	230.1964
240	LES_se0_ag4_m_01	230.4159	to um,	231.0569
242		231.3159	I was recruited as	232.1984
244		233.7686	manager of marketing services and	235.6081
246		235.7749	you know, just kind of moved through that.	237.3247
248		237.9657	Um.	238.3828
250		239.4744	Became	240.2208
252		241.0769	the very first black person to ever publish	243.5442
254		244.3568	a-	244.5368
256		244.9012	a-	245.0943
258		245.3490	world wide	246.0207
260		246.4026	magazine	247.1270
262		247.3027	that was not edited es-	248.5743
264		248.6841	re- especially for African Americans, [I published]	251.2831
265	LES_int_01	250.7433	[Mm.]	251.0550
266	LES_se0_ag4_m_01	251.6080	Stereo Review, Popular Electronics, and four or five other	254.2889
268		254.9037	um,	255.2023
270		255.3516	annuals that were related to that. I had offices in	258.0077
272		258.3501	four offices in two countries,	259.8121
274		260.2116	um	260.5014
275	LES_int_01	260.9696	Wow.	261.2462
276	LES_se0_ag4_m_01	261.3603	I- I had a really spectacular career doing that.	263.9155
277	LES_int_01	264.2931	Yeah.	264.5126
278	LES_se0_ag4_m_01	264.5126	And.	264.8594
279		264.9911	I did that for about thirteen years, and then moved from that into um,	268.4886
281		269.3008	the	269.4940
283		269.8321	Vice President of marketing for the corporation. I was only the third	272.7830
285		272.9191	Vice President of Marketing. They've only had four throughout	274.8640
286	LES_int_01	275.2679	Mm-hm.	275.5350
287	LES_se0_ag4_m_01	275.4216	i- i- in the- in the fifty year history for the company.	277.5757
288		278.4274	And um,	279.0596
290		279.2308	then I	279.6874
292		280.2055	when I got tired of that, I became Vice President in charge of starts and	283.3211
294		283.4967	acquisitions and mergers and things like that, so I	285.7752
296		286.4952	and then	286.9650
298		287.1713	somehow, th- I felt	288.1548
300		289.4440	really wasn't what I wanted to do,	291.0377
301	LES_int_01	291.1957	Mm.	291.5030
302	LES_se0_ag4_m_01	291.5030	you know, to create all this wealth	293.0616
303		293.7201	for- for one- a single family or	295.4923
305		295.6328	family and other people.	296.9806
306	LES_int_01	297.0728	Yeah.	297.3713
307	LES_se0_ag4_m_01	297.9289	And and s- it was- it was a funny kind of thing, but I	300.7475
309		301.3079	s- thought I had enough juice	303.2616
311		303.7928	to	304.1352
313		304.7235	start my own consulting firm.	306.3084
315		307.1953	And	307.5098
317		307.6415	the whole	308.0279
319		308.1508	thrust of it was, I was gonna provide these high level marketing services	311.5972
321		311.9528	to-	312.2206
323		312.5938	to minority persons who were trying to	314.7699
325		315.1395	get business, or couldn't access that [otherwise.]	317.3391
326	LES_int_01	317.2205	[Right.]	317.4716
327	LES_se0_ag4_m_01	317.5893	I lost a fortune.	318.7264
329		318.9415	[<laugh> You- you know because I- I did a lot of work. (laughing)]	323.1926
330	LES_int_01	318.9415	[<laugh>]	323.0581
331	LES_se0_ag4_m_01	323.5059	[And, um.]	324.1820
332	LES_int_01	323.7781	[<laugh>]	324.3357
333	LES_se0_ag4_m_01	324.7176	You know, people didn't have money or they couldn't pay, whatever the [situation was.]	328.5911
334	LES_int_01	327.8755	[Yeah.]	328.3979
335	LES_se0_ag4_m_01	329.1574	Um.	329.4692
337		330.0794	It was good though. You know, it kept me active.	332.1940
339		332.4750	Kept my mind active.	333.3530
341		333.8008	Um.	334.2004
343		334.7360	And then,	335.2452
345		337.3159	I found this church.	338.4179
347		339.0677	Found this church. It was	340.0573
349		340.2706	right after my mother died in nineteen,	342.0004
351		342.1321	I guess,	342.9863
353		343.9610	ninety-three,	344.9312
355		345.0541	thereabouts, and	345.8927
357		346.1912	I joined this church,	347.2581
359		347.9473	and	348.3161
361		349.8247	all of a sudden, I was reminded of a life long ambition that I'd had. I wanted to be an episcopal minister for years.	355.3945
362	LES_int_01	355.5789	Mm-hm.	355.9213
363	LES_se0_ag4_m_01	356.0925	But,	356.3120
365		356.4394	as time went on,	357.5940
367		357.9419	I- I had become so secular	359.4126
369		359.9131	so hedonistic,	360.9712
371		361.2302	that I thought that this couldn't. Oh that'll never work, [you know (laughing) <laugh>]	364.4204
372	LES_int_01	363.7930	[<laugh>]	364.7150
373	LES_se0_ag4_m_01	364.6136	[given] the life that I had led.	366.0229
374		366.5277	Uh.	366.8438
376		367.0634	When I s-	367.4497
378		367.6297	started speaking to /spo-/	368.3629
380		368.4551	Father /RD-NAME-2/ about it,	369.3683
382		369.7327	/with this/, in terms of him sponsoring me.	371.6083
384		372.4557	<ts>	372.5698
386		373.4084	And then we had another priest here, that was, and I was talking to him about it and he-	376.4113
388		376.9425	And he said very simple thing to me, that m-	378.7323
390		378.9254	that allowed me to	379.5664
392		379.7640	proceed. He said,	380.6376
394		382.6835	said,	382.9864
396		383.0918	the Lord doesn't call those	384.8991
398		385.9440	you know,	386.3040
400		386.5147	who are ready	387.3225
402		387.6079	to serve.	388.0820
404		389.1928	He makes ready	390.2932
406		390.4820	those that he calls.	391.6235
407	LES_int_01	391.6235	Mm.	392.1064
408	LES_se0_ag4_m_01	392.4752	So, I s- well, you know, it made eminent sense to me, [so they-] at least gave me the juice to enter into what was an incredible process, you know, because	399.2479
409	LES_int_01	394.6879	[Mm-hm.]	395.0435
410	LES_se0_ag4_m_01	399.8011	I said,	400.1830
412		400.4069	I didn't want to	401.4782
414		402.3064	didn't wanna become a priest	403.4347
416		403.6410	at that age	404.4796
418		404.7079	cause I was in my sixties then.	406.2094
419	LES_int_01	406.4903	Right.	407.0040
420	LES_se0_ag4_m_01	407.1050	And um,	407.7065
422		408.5366	I said, but I wanted to be a deacon because in a	410.7668
424		410.9468	episcopal church,	411.9610
426		413.6102	there are three levels of ministry, there's a bishop, he has charge of a large area, like	417.3903
428		417.5176	city of New [York.]	418.2233
429	LES_int_01	417.9511	[Right.]	418.4209
430	LES_se0_ag4_m_01	418.7457	Then, there's a priest, he had charge of the gathered flock of him in a church.	422.5170
431	LES_int_01	422.6560	Yeah.	422.8755
432	LES_se0_ag4_m_01	423.2091	And there's the deacon whose	424.6579
434		425.2726	image is always	426.1770
436		426.6599	the person standing in the door, looking out into the world,	429.6043
438		429.9994	and so the responsibility	431.3692
440		431.6940	is to	432.2823
442		432.6818	take the message of the church out to the people	434.6833
444		435.0301	[in the street.]	435.6096
445	LES_int_01	435.0301	[Ah.]	435.3594
446	LES_se0_ag4_m_01	435.8364	So, the idea of a street ministry	437.3905
448		437.5574	truly appealed to me	438.7120
449	LES_int_01	438.9491	[Yeah.]	439.4364
450	LES_se0_ag4_m_01	439.3003	[you know.]	439.5506
451		439.9764	So, you know, I studied for four years, and ho- but then I was ordained	443.4520
453		443.6057	in um,	444.0930
455		444.2159	in May of two thousand, and reassigned to this church.	447.1881
457		448.0296	Um.	448.3852
459		449.5618	And i- it- in-	450.4267
461		450.7691	um.	450.9008
463		451.0193	During that period, just before ordination, uh, like um	453.4164
465		453.9374	they started this Slave Galleries Project, uh,	456.0798
467		456.8437	this church has the	457.7430
469		457.9501	peculiar anomaly of	459.1706
471		460.0866	two slave galleries was a part of it's original architecture,	462.9447
473		463.3135	[and]	463.6603
474	LES_int_01	463.3135	[Huh.]	463.6603
475	LES_se0_ag4_m_01	464.8720	So,	465.3462
477		465.7106	Father /RD-NAME-2/'s whole thing was that	467.5662
479		468.2159	because of this whole gentrification phenomenon,	470.3013
480	LES_int_01	470.4637	Yeah.	470.7711
481	LES_se0_ag4_m_01	470.8764	that	471.1530
483		471.3725	you kn-	471.5921
485		472.0032	the f-	472.2535
487		472.6398	the children	473.3686
489		473.5091	of the families represented by our congregation here,	476.0379
491		476.5296	would not be able to live in this neighborhood.	478.4730
493		478.6091	Yeah, like my son couldn't afford to buy my apartment.	480.9403
494	LES_int_01	481.2081	Hm.	481.4759
495	LES_se0_ag4_m_01	481.9676	Okay.	482.3277
497		482.7974	So, um, I'm- I'm gonna give it to him eventually, but	484.8901
498	LES_int_01	484.9735	[Right.]	485.2720
499	LES_se0_ag4_m_01	485.2105	[you] know, if he had to buy it, he'd really be in [trouble.]	487.3662
500	LES_int_01	487.0193	[/unintelligible/]	488.0203
501	LES_se0_ag4_m_01	488.0950	So,	488.4769
503		489.2672	Uh.	489.4647
505		489.8891	He said that	490.3588
507		490.5300	Well, we need to do something	491.7637
509		492.3125	that-	492.5584
511		492.6725	that will survive us.	494.2530
513		494.8940	And so,	495.3067
515		495.4340	it was his idea	496.5275
517		497.4978	that	497.8183
519		498.0802	perhaps,	498.7782
521		499.9943	this- the [restoration.]	501.3685
523		503.5938	Hello.	503.9055
525		504.4807	The restoration and preservation of the galleries and it's [all.]	507.3592
526	LES_int_01	508.0880	<laugh>	508.4787
527	LES_se0_ag4_m_01	508.8387	Don't worry.	509.2602
528	LES_int_01	509.3787	<laugh>	509.6717
529	LES_se0_ag4_m_01	509.8561	Of the sla-	510.3742
531		510.4839	slave galleries, um	511.7308
533		512.2971	would probably provide enough information	514.3362
535		514.8938	you know	515.1528
537		515.2362	to	515.4909
539		516.7230	to serve as a testament	517.8557
541		518.1850	to the presence of African Americans here	520.1035
542	LES_int_01	520.6128	Okay.	520.9114
543	LES_se0_ag4_m_01	521.2494	long	521.8333
545		522.0776	you know, before anybody r-	523.1620
547		523.2894	ever gave credence to that.	524.5669
548	LES_int_01	524.8655	Right.	525.1684
549	LES_se0_ag4_m_01	525.2606	So, I thought you know I said you know, that's really a good idea. He said, well, I'm glad you like it because you got it.	529.3377
550	LES_int_01	529.9919	<laugh>	530.4034
551	LES_se0_ag4_m_01	530.5450	And I said,	531.4450
553		532.1079	I said, look, I'm a businessman turned minister, I don't know anything at all about restoration, preservation, or history. I hated history.	537.9631
554	LES_int_01	538.1343	[<laugh>]	539.5611
555	LES_se0_ag4_m_01	538.7094	[You know.]	539.0518
556		539.6972	But,	539.9870
558		540.1435	luckily for us, we had this um, longstanding re-	543.0060
560		543.1684	um,	543.4011
562		543.5328	relationship with the Tenement Museum.	545.0650
563	LES_int_01	545.7396	Uh-huh.	546.0733
564	LES_se0_ag4_m_01	546.1655	And so, they agreed to partner with us and	548.3079
566		548.4396	to	548.5801
568		548.8391	act a fiscal conduit and	550.3494
570		550.6435	show us how to really get into this whole idea	553.3640
572		553.7591	of um, [restoring] a historic site.	555.9279
573	LES_int_01	554.3356	[Right.]	554.6622
574		556.1826	Right.	556.4811
575	LES_se0_ag4_m_01	556.7577	So, I- I literally signed on	558.3103
577		558.4245	with them as a consultant	559.6274
579		560.5362	uh, for three years, which was interesting, because I was	562.9772
581		563.1045	a paid consultant, but I was really learning	565.3025
583		565.7635	the whole thing.	566.3167
584	LES_int_01	566.3957	Mm-hm.	566.9050
585	LES_se0_ag4_m_01	567.1157	Um.	567.5679
587		568.1123	And so we got started on the research, and we did	570.2840
589		570.6264	the research on two levels and	572.0269
591		572.3694	we raised about	573.1860
593		573.3133	alm- nearly a quarter of a million dollars for	575.1879
595		575.4733	for this, for interns, and whole /like/.	577.3684
597		578.0269	And we were doing research on a genealogical	580.2835
599		580.7972	you know, who	581.5962
601		581.8933	who were the people who started this church,	583.4781
603		583.8118	who sat in those galleries, that whole aspect of it.	586.1167
605		586.6699	Um.	587.0738
607		587.7367	And	588.0601
609		588.4157	on the architectural, what could the space itself. The ghosts of the space. What could it tell us? [You know.]	593.3504
610	LES_int_01	593.1045	[Yeah.]	593.4558
611	LES_se0_ag4_m_01	593.9826	So,	594.3894
613		594.7845	o- it was amazing because	596.1894
615		596.6899	we immediately began to get a lot of ink,	599.1422
617		599.3134	a lot of press about it, a lot of	600.8284
619		600.9162	people began to be	601.6801
621		602.0006	you know, interested.	602.8743
623		603.5855	Um.	603.9235
625		604.8060	And,	605.1704
627		605.2933	we were encouraged to proceed,	607.0311
629		607.4570	but	607.6765
631		607.7687	of course,	608.2604
633		608.3921	now	608.7828
635		608.9585	it had gotten so large	610.3194
637		610.6838	that the Tenement Museum	611.7755
639		611.9774	they were pretty much forced to	613.0794
641		613.1892	cut us loose.	613.9355
642	LES_int_01	614.3131	Yeah.	614.7828
643	LES_se0_ag4_m_01	615.0989	And you know, with their blessing, and so here I am on this thing, I said oh,	617.8721
645		617.9731	God, you know. What do I do now? [/You know/.]	620.2604
646	LES_int_01	619.5316	[<laugh> You're on your own.]	621.4194
647	LES_se0_ag4_m_01	620.8970	[So,]	621.1736
648		621.4853	Yeah, so what I did was, we- we formed this corporation, not for profit corporation, called r- called /RD-WORK-6/.	627.5553
650		628.1087	And our mission is to	629.2282
652		629.7052	to-	629.9335
654		630.7194	to-	630.8379
655	LES_int_01	630.9257	Mm-hm.	631.1409
656	LES_se0_ag4_m_01	631.3472	you know, just to	632.2384
658		632.7521	enhance and follow through on the whole concept	635.1185
660		635.4111	of the restoration and preservation of the	637.2462
662		637.9092	of the slave galleries	638.9145
663	LES_int_01	639.0463	Mm-hm.	639.4107
664	LES_se0_ag4_m_01	639.7926	Ideally,	640.5960
666		640.7058	you know, our pie in the sky vision,	642.4209
668		642.7457	is that the s-	643.5492
670		643.9004	the information, which is getting to be quite considerable,	646.2755
672		646.7058	um,	647.0043
674		647.0965	that we	647.7711
676		648.7677	put together,	649.6414
678		650.2867	would eventually	651.3799
680		651.5731	be a seminal force that could start maybe	654.2935
682		654.8379	an African American museum here in	656.5677
684		656.6906	Lower Manhattan, and none exist.	658.5521
686		658.6443	You know.	658.8287
688		659.0965	[You have]	659.3935
689	LES_int_01	659.0965	[Yeah.]	659.3935
690	LES_se0_ag4_m_01	659.5648	sure, you have the burial ground,	660.8868
692		661.2292	but they're all	661.7868
693	LES_int_01	661.9624	Yeah.	662.3048
694	LES_se0_ag4_m_01	662.3927	very /sple-/	662.8010
696		663.0512	but there isn't a	663.6483
698		663.8722	a repository of information that tells about	666.1229
700		666.5839	the kind and quality	667.8219
702		668.0590	of contribution that African Americans made to life in Lower Manhattan.	671.4521
703	LES_int_01	671.5136	Right.	671.8297
704	LES_se0_ag4_m_01	672.5277	And	672.7780
706		673.2263	and so eh- the thing of it is that the first thing I did was I had to try to	676.4455
708		676.5664	figure out, well, what's gonna be	678.2115
710		678.6479	our	679.0123
712		680.6323	focus.	681.2908
714		681.6289	Cause one of the first bit of data that we uncovered, was that the very first non-indigenous person to live in this city	687.0055
716		687.4094	was a person of African decent. He was a Afro-Portuguese sailor,	690.5649
717	LES_int_01	690.8634	[Hm.]	691.1444
718	LES_se0_ag4_m_01	690.9688	[who] sailed into the harbor in 1613 on a Dutch ship,	694.3626
719	LES_int_01	694.7621	[Wow.]	695.1177
720	LES_se0_ag4_m_01	694.9202	[As-] as a translator, because he knew Indian dialect somehow.	697.7544
721		698.1935	[And] uh.	698.9706
722	LES_int_01	698.1935	[Hm.]	698.4306
723	LES_se0_ag4_m_01	699.4300	He was abandoned in the harbor.	700.5539
725		701.4013	Had a argument with the ship's captain, he left him here, they sailed off [without him.]	704.5359
726	LES_int_01	704.0837	[Oh no. (laughing)]	705.0540
727	LES_se0_ag4_m_01	705.3027	And he co-habited with the Rockaway Indians and	707.7700
729		708.1125	quite frankly, we give him credit for having started the African American population here,	711.6692
731		712.0906	in uh,	712.5675
733		713.1867	i- in Manhattan.	714.1745
734	LES_int_01	714.2755	[Yeah.]	714.6706
735	LES_se0_ag4_m_01	714.3984	[And] that was in 1613.	715.6935
736		716.0930	And it was about eight	716.8745
738		717.0150	years later or so when the first	718.7140
740		718.8438	nine or ten	719.9111
742		720.4379	uh,	720.6530
744		721.3467	African	721.8999
746		722.0886	female slaves were brought into the harbor.	724.5648
748		725.0813	Um.	725.4676
750		726.2008	As a work force.	727.3599
752		727.5574	[And then,]	728.1238
753	LES_int_01	727.5574	[Mm.]	728.0535
754	LES_se0_ag4_m_01	728.5321	the whole slave trade began to	730.0292
756		730.1872	to burgeon.	730.8765
757	LES_int_01	731.0830	Right.	731.6138
758	LES_se0_ag4_m_01	731.8759	Now, people.	732.3896
760		733.0877	There's slavery in New York, well what kind of /they-/, you know, enlightened bastion, of- of,	736.9404
762		737.1556	you know	737.4453
763	LES_int_01	737.6209	The [North, /inaudible/ yeah,] yeah, [no I.]	740.7336
764	LES_se0_ag4_m_01	738.0073	[progress in the North. Yeah, you know what I-]	739.6712
766		740.1322	[Yeah.]	740.4834
767		740.7732	And so the whole [thing was]	742.0289
768	LES_int_01	741.3440	[It's very true.]	742.1782
769	LES_se0_ag4_m_01	742.2792	The whole thing was, was that there was no city	744.4172
771		744.6719	in this country, during the height of the slave trade	747.0279
773		747.7348	that had more slaves	748.8675
775		749.9826	than New York.	750.5885
777		751.3574	You know, the only city wa- there was one city. It was Charleston, South [Carolina.]	754.6809
778	LES_int_01	754.3472	[<laugh> Right.]	755.1989
779	LES_se0_ag4_m_01	755.5633	Right?	755.7769
781		756.4618	They had a	756.7911
783		757.4365	burgeoning slave market, and we had a slave market here at Forty Wall Street.	760.9180
785		761.1989	where of a given morning, you could buy a slave, you could rent a European worker, or- or- or- or	766.0180
787		766.2638	an Indian	767.0848
789		767.6189	cook, or whatever.	768.5057
790	LES_int_01	768.5716	Yeah.	768.8833
791	LES_se0_ag4_m_01	769.1730	You know.	769.4189
793		769.5462	Yo-	769.7306
795		769.8887	They dealt in flesh, right there, Forty Wall Street.	772.0487
797		772.6414	So,	773.0102
799		773.3175	s- th- th- thi- whi- that	774.6199
801		775.5726	really	775.9150
803		776.9555	caused me to	777.8336
805		778.1101	or res-	778.6150
807		778.7116	and it	778.9838
809		779.1111	allowed me	779.9042
811		780.3433	to sort of	780.9184
813		781.0649	fine tune	781.9562
815		782.3337	what the mission would be about.	783.5059
817		784.2479	My experience with the Tenement Museum,	785.8400
819		787.7366	used to make me very angry.	788.7289
821		789.3523	because, almost everything that they do is	791.4782
823		791.6450	proscribed by	792.6197
825		792.8129	the building	793.4143
827		793.7568	that they have	794.2573
829		794.4065	okay, they.	794.8675
830	LES_int_01	794.8675	Right.	795.3592
831	LES_se0_ag4_m_01	795.3592	Okay.	795.6402
832		795.9563	Which was fine,	796.7851
834		797.6280	but,	797.8388
836		798.7124	what it does	799.8363
838		800.1788	in the way they	800.7407
840		801.1534	present	801.9158
842		802.3856	is it creates the impression	803.8695
844		804.2558	that	804.5851
846		805.5422	immigration	806.3149
848		806.5695	meant	807.1534
850		808.9607	that great	809.4700
852		809.7114	in-migration that took place in the middle nineteenth century.	812.7934
854		813.5646	You know, all these Europeans came,	815.1012
855	LES_int_01	815.2417	[Hm.]	815.4173
856	LES_se0_ag4_m_01	815.4085	and settled in the Lower East Side,	816.8749
857		817.0680	and they lived in these tenements,	818.4861
859		818.7539	and	819.1710
861		819.2588	that was it. And I said to myself, well	820.8422
863		821.2153	you know	821.5666
865		821.6763	there was an African American population here in the	823.6827
867		823.9530	seventeenth century,	824.9721
868	LES_int_01	825.0775	[Hm.]	825.2575
869	LES_se0_ag4_m_01	825.2575	And in the eighteenth century, it was a Hispanic population,	828.0310
870		828.3120	and a l- very large	830.0637
872		830.3535	a	830.5335
874		831.3720	Indian population and	832.8340
876		833.2397	and	833.5866
878		833.7358	and, and Chinese, and	834.8670
880		834.9636	you know, and I said,	835.6924
882		836.0173	they were the people	837.1851
884		838.2256	who built	838.8578
886		838.9763	the infrastructure of the city.	841.0382
888		841.5782	Bec- otherwise,	842.9260
890		843.0138	those European immigrants could not have got from Ellis Island	846.7397
892		846.9460	to the Lower East [Side, there was just no way.]	849.3080
893	LES_int_01	847.8197	[<laugh>]	849.3080
894	LES_se0_ag4_m_01	849.7119	You found somebody put the streets and the roads and all that [stuff in-]	852.8494
895	LES_int_01	852.4499	[Yeah. (laughing)]	852.8494
896	LES_se0_ag4_m_01	853.2709	in place.	853.7758
898		854.0919	And so, that's what gives us our focus now, is that	856.7261
900		857.0597	that part of history is the story yet to be told.	860.1923
901	LES_int_01	860.2450	Mm.	860.6928
902	LES_se0_ag4_m_01	860.8026	And so, we're working hard	862.3611
904		862.7782	at- at	863.1953
906		863.3445	developing that part of it.	864.6513
908		864.9191	[Um.]	865.2704
909	LES_int_01	864.9191	[Yeah.]	865.2704
910	LES_se0_ag4_m_01	866.0123	<ts> We meet roadblocks because there are a lot of people who don't like competition in New York City.	870.1990
911	LES_int_01	870.7391	Right.	871.0728
912	LES_se0_ag4_m_01	871.0728	You know because everybody's competing for the same dollars.	873.6455
913		873.7684	[You know.]	874.1196
914	LES_int_01	873.7684	[Sure.]	874.1196
915	LES_se0_ag4_m_01	874.2777	Me-	874.4884
916	LES_int_01	874.8177	[Sure.]	875.1909
917	LES_se0_ag4_m_01	875.1294	[You] know what I mean.]	875.8450
918	LES_int_01	875.9065	[Yeah.]	876.3060
919	LES_se0_ag4_m_01	876.2006	[Yeah.] And so we,	877.2264
920		877.5469	but- but, we're, you know, we're pushing on, we're persevering as best we can.	881.5421
921	LES_int_01	881.9723	Yeah.	882.2709
922	LES_se0_ag4_m_01	882.3060	Um.	882.7319
924		883.5425	We're now	884.2143
926		885.0177	I got a couple or few grants	886.5367
928		886.9626	b- this year	887.7704
930		888.3455	um,	888.7143
932		888.8680	to, uh,	889.3801
934		889.7094	do certain things, like we built a website.	891.6411
936		892.1811	Um.	892.6772
938		893.3928	Wa- we- we're developing a curriculum	895.4591
940		896.1835	um,	896.3986
942		896.6182	that	896.8377
944		897.0133	we hope will get New York State	898.3084
946		898.8133	approval	899.4938
948		899.6299	so that	900.1392
950		900.9392	if a teacher wants to bring a class from anywhere in the state,	903.6437
952		904.1222	um,	904.3856
954		905.8256	that we will send them information to use in the classroom about	909.1388
956		909.3758	you know	909.7358
958		909.8807	African American history	910.9827
960		911.2505	[you know, or]	911.5842
961	LES_int_01	911.2971	[Mm-hm.]	911.5842
962	LES_se0_ag4_m_01	911.6939	par-	911.8827
964		912.0100	particularly in New York City	913.1439
965	LES_int_01	913.3678	Mm-hm.	913.7103
966	LES_se0_ag4_m_01	913.7103	and	914.1669
967		914.4654	then they'll be the visit,	915.4225
969		915.7649	and then	916.2786
971		916.4279	we'll give them	917.1742
973		917.3674	materials to use post visit.	918.9727
975		919.5303	You know.	919.7498
977		920.1669	So we're hoping to get that set, because once we do that, then	922.7571
979		923.1567	uh, o- one thing we can do is that we can get funding for	926.4438
981		926.7555	those,	927.2033
983		927.5458	um,	927.8224
985		928.9770	inner city schools,	930.1404
987		930.4418	so to speak,	931.0257
989		931.4779	who s-	932.1277
991		932.5667	can't afford to pay.	933.4228
992	LES_int_01	933.7530	[Mm-hm, mm-hm.]	934.6969
993	LES_se0_ag4_m_01	933.9330	[for a- a tour.]	934.7312
994		935.2252	And so, we can give that funded, and you know, uh,	937.2828
996		937.4013	expose the	938.3540
998		938.4726	the- the materials that were developing pretty rapidly,	941.0174
1000		941.4784	to a wider	942.8130
1002		942.9403	audience.	943.5638
1003	LES_int_01	943.6033	[Mm-hm.]	943.9018
1004	LES_se0_ag4_m_01	943.9018	We're now members of the	945.0477
1005		945.4676	the International Coalition of Historic Sites of Conscience	948.8701
1007		949.1642	that	949.4013
1009		950.0028	you know,	950.3277
1011		950.4199	and we've had visitors from all over the world come here.	953.3467
1012	LES_int_01	953.3993	[Mm.]	953.8384
1013	LES_se0_ag4_m_01	953.5925	[You know.]	953.8647
1014	LES_int_01	954.0491	[Mm-hm.]	954.3345
1015	LES_se0_ag4_m_01	954.3389	Um, in the last	955.3969
1017		955.5067	seven or eight years, and so, the- there is an awareness building	958.4993
1019		958.9998	um,	959.5486
1021		960.2730	<ts> I- I	960.8701
1023		960.9886	put us into the uh,	962.0116
1025		962.8925	the um,	963.4632
1027		963.6696	the North East African American preservation group	966.2774
1029		966.3872	that's run out of the National Trust for Historic Preservation, so we're- we're connecting and-	970.2184
1031		970.5432	and networking with a lot of other sites [around,]	972.7867
1032	LES_int_01	972.3871	[Mm.]	972.7006
1033	LES_se0_ag4_m_01	973.2916	you know.	973.5989
1035		974.3189	A- and so, that's what I've been doing	975.9506
1037		976.0471	you know, I- I am the busiest retired person in America, I'm [seventy nine years old, I work] too hard,	981.3555
1038	LES_int_01	979.2142	[<laugh>]	980.6405
1039	LES_se0_ag4_m_01	981.8648	you know, but, uh,	982.8658
1040	LES_int_01	982.8658	<laugh>	983.6121
1041	LES_se0_ag4_m_01	984.4902	The opposite of that is boredom.	985.8882
1042	LES_int_01	985.8882	Yeah (laughing) [<laugh>]	987.6136
1043	LES_se0_ag4_m_01	986.3317	[right?]	986.5907
1045		986.6829	[So I- uh,] So,	988.0746
1046		988.7814	But, um	989.3390
1047	LES_int_01	989.3390	But, it's important work.	990.2522
1048	LES_se0_ag4_m_01	990.3663	Yeah, and- and so, ye- so, you know the st-	992.6039
1050		992.7882	the sum of it all is- is that I've- I've been here on the Lower East Side	995.6419
1052		997.0863	I f-	997.2751
1054		997.5298	maintain a legal residence, put it that way.	999.4951
1055	LES_int_01	999.6048	Yeah.	999.9253
1056	LES_se0_ag4_m_01	999.9385	For	1000.2019
1058		1000.8956	fifty two years or something.	1002.2030
1059	LES_int_01	1002.4717	Wow.	1002.8756
1060	LES_se0_ag4_m_01	1003.2312	And um.	1003.7785
1061	LES_int_01	1004.7663	Lemme ask you a little bit about, uh,	1006.8297
1063		1007.5278	your memories of the neighborhood.	1008.9810
1064	LES_se0_ag4_m_01	1009.5254	Well, I just- [/what I was just about to ??/]	1011.2646
1065	LES_int_01	1010.7421	[Yeah, oh yeah, great.]	1011.5412
1066	LES_se0_ag4_m_01	1012.0614	Um.	1012.4127
1068		1014.5639	What I remember about this neighborhood was that	1016.6214
1070		1017.6619	it was	1018.2370
1072		1018.4829	a lot	1018.8605
1074		1019.2468	it was always a busy place. It's very busy right now.	1021.8513
1075	LES_int_01	1022.0577	Yeah.	1022.3035
1076	LES_se0_ag4_m_01	1022.5011	Kay.	1022.7206
1078		1023.2415	And, you know	1024.0976
1080		1024.4006	e-	1024.5235
1082		1024.7474	as a	1025.1425
1084		1025.3094	youngster growing up in Brooklyn,	1026.8328
1086		1027.0128	my grandmother, and my mother, and her sister, they were both master seamstresses.	1031.1682
1087	LES_int_01	1031.5677	Mm.	1031.8750
1088	LES_se0_ag4_m_01	1031.8750	And, so they, they worked.	1033.2492
1089		1033.4950	They-	1033.6575
1091		1033.7540	they made	1034.1616
1093		1034.2845	clothing for very-	1035.2284
1095		1035.4791	for	1035.6196
1097		1035.7205	wealthy, private customers who lived in Brooklyn Heights and places like [that.]	1039.3893
1098	LES_int_01	1039.0776	[Okay.]	1039.3893
1099	LES_se0_ag4_m_01	1039.9556	And so every Sunday,	1041.0049
1101		1041.3404	you know, my grandmother, and my mother and my aunt, and they would all schlep us	1045.0644
1103		1045.1917	o-	1045.2708
1105		1045.3937	me, myself, and my cousin,	1046.7547
1107		1047.1103	over here to Orchard Street	1048.5201
1109		1048.6738	around	1049.0557
1111		1049.5123	to buy [f-]	1050.0991
1112	LES_int_01	1049.8884	[Ah. Yeah.]	1050.7840
1113	LES_se0_ag4_m_01	1050.6742	fabric [and notions]	1052.0747
1114	LES_int_01	1051.1967	[Fabric.]	1051.5567
1115		1052.3689	[Yeah.]	1052.6762
1116	LES_se0_ag4_m_01	1052.4698	[a-] and things of that sort, [you know.]	1054.1513
1117	LES_int_01	1053.7913	[Right.]	1054.0986
1118	LES_se0_ag4_m_01	1054.6255	And	1055.1918
1120		1055.2884	and I remember the-	1056.0508
1122		1056.1737	I remember egg creams a- and Charlotte [Russe and]	1059.0186
1123	LES_int_01	1058.4693	[<laugh> Yeah.]	1059.6854
1124	LES_se0_ag4_m_01	1059.3786	[I mean] very vividly, you know, that was an important part of my life.	1062.1835
1125		1062.6270	And-	1062.8773
1127		1062.9695	because we used to have to carry the stuff back, so we would always get rewarded.	1066.1744
1128	LES_int_01	1066.3500	[<laugh>]	1067.1124
1129	LES_se0_ag4_m_01	1066.9324	[before] the fact.	1067.6656
1130		1068.2582	Um.	1068.6490
1132		1069.0968	But, i- i- i- it was always an interesting neighborhood to me	1071.9724
1134		1072.1129	and	1072.4246
1136		1073.3890	what	1073.6348
1138		1073.8280	interested me about it,	1074.9826
1140		1075.4392	the- as a youngster growing up,	1077.1163
1142		1078.4378	and now	1079.1651
1144		1079.5953	even,	1079.9904
1146		1080.3038	was the heterogeneity. I mean	1082.0555
1148		1082.1697	this is the most incredible thing, I'm- I'm still	1084.5700
1150		1084.6798	you know,	1085.0530
1152		1085.1759	overwhelmed by a walk from here to China Town. You know, you	1088.0032
1154		1089.0086	there's no telling where a person is from, [right?]	1091.0687
1155	LES_int_01	1090.8360	[Yeah.]	1091.3716
1156	LES_se0_ag4_m_01	1091.5121	That you might encounter.	1092.4165
1157	LES_int_01	1092.5745	Right.	1092.8256
1158	LES_se0_ag4_m_01	1092.8256	And that makes it so,	1093.7775
1159		1093.9224	so very exciting.	1094.8399
1161		1095.1545	You know.	1095.3696
1163		1095.8438	Then,	1096.1994
1165		1096.5023	um.	1096.8096
1167		1097.4331	A- as a youth,	1098.2584
1169		1098.5482	growing up in-	1099.3077
1171		1099.4307	in-	1099.7116
1173		1099.9224	in Brooklyn	1100.5985
1175		1100.7038	and going to high school	1101.8306
1177		1101.9799	on the	1102.2389
1179		1102.8536	in Lower Manhattan on fifteenth street,	1104.3462
1181		1104.5106	[it's /unintelligible/, it was]	1105.7336
1182	LES_int_01	1105.1365	[Mm. Mm-hm.] Mm-hm.	1106.3348
1183	LES_se0_ag4_m_01	1106.5853	So, I would get off the subway every day,	1108.6384
1185		1109.9292	a- the F train, Second Avenue stop	1111.8126
1186	LES_int_01	1112.1720	Yeah.	1112.5769
1187	LES_se0_ag4_m_01	1112.5633	and Houston	1113.4154
1188		1113.5252	and I would walk to Fifteenth Street.	1115.4306
1190		1115.8915	and so the- I knew everything. I mean I knew the sec- the Yiddish theater, I knew who the actors were, I [knew all the] delicatessens.	1122.1857
1191	LES_int_01	1120.9257	[Right.]	1121.2857
1192		1122.4842	Yeah.	1122.7784
1193	LES_se0_ag4_m_01	1122.7988	<blows nose> Excuse me.	1123.7822
1195		1124.8227	And so	1125.2837
1197		1125.7930	I had-	1126.3988
1199		1127.8965	I had an incredibly rich	1129.6833
1201		1129.8326	life.	1130.3945
1203		1131.2989	Because of all of the infusion of all these	1133.5365
1205		1133.9096	various [cultures.]	1135.0335
1206	LES_int_01	1134.8711	[Sure.]	1135.3365
1207		1135.5121	Yeah.	1135.7536
1208	LES_se0_ag4_m_01	1135.9204	Now,	1136.3023
1210		1137.9048	the thing about it	1138.7374
1212		1139.2599	then, and you have to forgive me, I have a really bad sinus [condition.]	1142.4692
1213	LES_int_01	1142.0872	[Oh, don't worry about it.]	1142.8775
1214	LES_se0_ag4_m_01	1142.6316	[It-]	1142.8819
1215		1143.3209	Um.	1143.5843
1217		1144.1588	The thing about it	1145.0149
1219		1146.2662	now	1146.6745
1221		1146.9511	as opposed to then,	1148.1672
1223		1149.2955	is that	1149.7740
1225		1150.8920	it seems to be becoming	1152.3320
1227		1152.8150	so rapidly, a neighborhood for the privileged.	1155.5238
1228	LES_int_01	1156.0638	Yeah.	1156.3272
1229	LES_se0_ag4_m_01	1156.8086	Mm.	1157.0413
1231		1158.6174	And.	1158.9642
1233		1160.3560	I mean, there were always people of wealth here.	1162.0857
1235		1162.4984	There ar- there was always an incredible	1164.2267
1237		1164.5954	you know, artistic community	1166.1233
1239		1166.3691	it dispersed,	1167.1374
1241		1167.7828	at- at least	1168.5599
1243		1168.6916	I know for the last	1170.0467
1245		1170.1784	seventy-odd years or more.	1172.0047
1246	LES_int_01	1172.0706	Yeah.	1172.5711
1247	LES_se0_ag4_m_01	1172.7072	Um.	1172.9442
1249		1174.1340	But we	1174.5540
1251		1174.6330	went down the entire socioeconomic scale.	1177.2979
1252	LES_int_01	1177.4867	Mm-hm.	1177.9213
1253	LES_se0_ag4_m_01	1177.9828	And then, during the thirties,	1179.1506
1255		1179.2604	particularly, and right up until nineteen forty-two	1181.8182
1257		1182.0948	everybody was poor.	1183.5436
1259		1185.0012	Cause	1185.2163
1261		1185.3348	the Great Depression was upon [us.]	1187.0411
1262	LES_int_01	1186.7689	[Right.]	1187.3167
1263	LES_se0_ag4_m_01	1187.6294	As a- <cough> nobody had any (coughing) you know, very few people.	1190.5621
1264	LES_int_01	1190.0836	[Was no wealth (laughing) <laugh>]	1191.5625
1265	LES_se0_ag4_m_01	1190.9134	[Right, that's right.]	1191.8787
1266		1192.2650	And- and so, that was an interesting phenomenon, in it of itself, it had the-	1195.2647
1268		1195.4666	the-	1195.6290
1270		1195.7388	the-	1195.9891
1272		1196.3008	the effect of	1196.9227
1274		1197.0763	bonding together, people of-	1198.6305
1276		1198.7227	of very diverse backgrounds, and ethnicities, and things, cause we were all in same boat.	1202.8852
1277	LES_int_01	1203.3297	Yeah.	1203.6327
1278	LES_se0_ag4_m_01	1203.6398	You know.	1203.9295
1280		1204.2588	And then, along came World War Two, and of course people began to	1207.0144
1282		1207.1637	do a little better because of	1208.4325
1284		1208.5247	there were opportunities that	1209.6486
1286		1209.9734	to earn	1210.6173
1287	LES_int_01	1211.1046	[Yeah.]	1211.5305
1288	LES_se0_ag4_m_01	1211.2056	[um,]	1211.4866
1289		1211.8597	and	1212.1627
1291		1212.3163	the like.	1212.7071
1293		1213.1812	But now,	1214.0681
1295		1215.4554	it seems like	1216.1271
1297		1216.5310	all those people who	1217.5041
1299		1218.7159	their image counterparts,	1220.3666
1301		1220.4983	i- in- in the	1221.4773
1303		1222.0964	thirties, forties, fifties, and sixties, and even	1224.6939
1305		1224.9222	s-	1225.1593
1307		1225.4578	even	1225.9407
1309		1226.8934	seventies and eighties,	1227.9866
1311		1229.6139	who used to work hard	1231.0802
1313		1231.6510	and achieve	1232.6739
1315		1233.3456	a- and raise their families and the like, and enjoy	1236.4305
1317		1236.8300	the neighborhood and it's vibrancy and it's character	1239.4422
1318	LES_int_01	1239.6266	Yeah.	1239.8637
1319	LES_se0_ag4_m_01	1240.0305	are replaced	1241.0344
1321		1241.4075	by a much smaller group of very bright, very intelligent, very hard working people who are m-	1245.4554
1323		1245.6091	earning	1245.9647
1325		1246.3335	incredible amounts of money,	1248.1056
1326	LES_int_01	1248.2285	Yeah.	1248.5402
1327	LES_se0_ag4_m_01	1248.6149	and so they've raised a- the- the-	1250.6520
1329		1251.0691	the cost of everything	1252.1930
1331		1253.4630	to the degree that it's pricing other people out.	1255.4606
1332	LES_int_01	1255.7635	Yeah.	1255.9654
1333	LES_se0_ag4_m_01	1256.0093	Poor people	1256.6284
1335		1256.8172	are just being forced right out	1258.6727
1337		1259.2566	of the neighborhood.	1260.0337
1339		1260.6220	and I think that's a	1261.4342
1341		1261.5703	very very	1262.3386
1343		1262.4879	dangerous thing	1263.7128
1345		1264.0772	particularly for New York.	1265.4059
1347		1265.7659	It's not as if we were just a small community, a suburban community somewhere,	1269.9806
1349		1270.3669	and the character	1271.0635
1351		1271.1996	could change and	1272.1259
1353		1272.3937	and another one similar to it would s-	1274.1454
1355		1274.3518	sn-	1274.6108
1357		1274.7250	you know, spring up adjacent,	1276.0245
1359		1276.2264	i-	1276.3845
1361		1276.4767	adjacent to it.	1277.1617
1362	LES_int_01	1277.2978	Yeah.	1277.5876
1363	LES_se0_ag4_m_01	1278.0837	What this is, is that there are people who are going to be displaced.	1281.9674
1365		1282.3933	With no real concern for what happens to them.	1285.0819
1366	LES_int_01	1285.7185	Mm-hm.	1286.1400
1367	LES_se0_ag4_m_01	1286.4692	You know.	1286.7107
1369		1287.1717	And that's part of the reason why	1289.3785
1371		1289.8826	those lots are still empty.	1291.4814
1373		1292.7355	over there	1293.4028
1375		1293.5126	[on-]	1293.7497
1376	LES_int_01	1293.5556	[Yeah.]	1293.9670
1377	LES_se0_ag4_m_01	1293.9033	on-	1294.1097
1378		1294.2194	on, uh,	1294.6321
1380		1294.7331	Broome	1295.2994
1382		1295.5014	and Delancey and you know,	1297.0687
1383	LES_int_01	1297.2795	Yeah.	1297.5692
1384	LES_se0_ag4_m_01	1298.1487	Essex to I guess Norfolk, or thereabout	1300.3614
1385	LES_int_01	1300.4624	[Yeah.]	1300.7781
1386	LES_se0_ag4_m_01	1300.4927	[Y-]	1300.6922
1387		1300.8663	That's about [it right?]	1301.6039
1388	LES_int_01	1301.2391	[That's about right.]	1301.8449
1389	LES_se0_ag4_m_01	1302.3048	And	1302.6121
1391		1302.8009	And	1302.9941
1393		1303.1928	a- i- i- as I see it,	1304.6679
1395		1304.7908	and I read it,	1305.4318
1397		1306.2425	It's because guys like Sheldon Silver, and- and	1308.8810
1399		1309.0567	and, and his cohorts	1310.4484
1401		1310.8698	they really don't care	1311.7947
1403		1312.4400	about us.	1313.1688
1405		1313.6166	And then you have	1314.4332
1407		1314.5298	the- the- there is another	1315.7547
1409		1316.1323	effort	1316.4352
1411		1316.6942	to	1316.9577
1413		1317.7420	to create	1318.2732
1415		1319.2040	in fact it's i-	1320.0090
1417		1320.1715	it's not even so subtle.	1321.5484
1419		1322.0752	i- they	1322.4572
1421		1322.6459	i-	1322.8259
1423		1322.9225	i-	1323.1025
1425		1323.5986	this area's being marketed as the-	1325.8597
1427		1325.9871	the	1326.2856
1429		1326.5878	cradle of American Jewry.	1328.2832
1431		1328.4061	Okay.	1328.8056
1433		1329.0383	I mean, that's alright, but	1330.1403
1435		1330.5592	as long as you	1331.2485
1437		1331.4460	realize that	1332.0548
1439		1332.9460	there are a lot different kinds of people rocking that cradle.	1334.8645
1440	LES_int_01	1335.3211	[<laugh>]	1336.4275
1441	LES_se0_ag4_m_01	1335.7777	[A-]	1335.9972
1443		1336.1772	[And]	1336.6909
1444		1336.9851	[that]	1337.4680
1445	LES_int_01	1337.2579	[<laugh>]	1337.4855
1446	LES_se0_ag4_m_01	1337.7299	and b- b- but, the thing of it is, is that	1340.2938
1448		1341.2597	they're trying to control	1342.8446
1450		1342.9412	the character	1343.9187
1452		1344.0504	of the neighborhood.	1344.8889
1453	LES_int_01	1344.8743	Mm.	1345.3372
1454	LES_se0_ag4_m_01	1345.3411	See, one of the founders of this church,	1347.3650
1456		1347.9050	James P. Allaire,	1348.9412
1458		1349.2924	built the very first tenement	1350.6273
1460		1351.1893	down here in Lower Manhattan.	1352.5415
1461	LES_int_01	1352.7159	Okay.	1353.1665
1462	LES_se0_ag4_m_01	1353.2512	Okay.	1353.5849
1464		1354.0941	He rented it to whoever could pay the eight dollars or so.	1357.2112
1465	LES_int_01	1357.5449	Yeah.	1357.7776
1466	LES_se0_ag4_m_01	1357.7776	You know, for a three hundred and seventy five dollar square- a three hundred seventy five	1360.9239
1467		1361.2400	square foot	1362.0566
1469		1362.1795	apartment, that was so small, you had to come outside to change your mind, [right?]	1365.4356
1470	LES_int_01	1365.1255	[<laugh>]	1366.7104
1471	LES_se0_ag4_m_01	1365.9975	[And-]	1366.2610
1473		1366.3839	[And] it was a bathroom in the hallway.	1367.9205
1474		1368.2278	Now, that [same] space, that same amount of space if it still exists,	1371.7065
1475	LES_int_01	1368.6800	[Yeah.]	1368.9873
1476	LES_se0_ag4_m_01	1372.0336	has been redone, redecorated, bathrooms moved inside, and suddenly you're gonna cost fifteen hundred dollars a month.	1377.2616
1478		1377.8719	So,	1378.2143
1480		1378.6534	you could see how it's leap-frogged over a substantial population of people who would like to stay in the neighborhood and rent that kind of space, they [can't.]	1385.7465
1481	LES_int_01	1385.5493	[Yeah.]	1385.7908
1482	LES_se0_ag4_m_01	1386.5854	They really can't.	1387.1123
1484		1387.4108	And so, tha- tha- those,	1388.5435
1486		1388.6664	those lots over there are being- the Seward Park thing.	1391.6260
1488		1392.2407	It- it-	1392.6035
1490		1392.6826	they're being fought over vigorously, and have been for years,	1395.3431
1492		1395.6021	because as I understand it, and I don't really know	1397.8631
1494		1398.0607	all the	1398.6973
1496		1398.8762	you know	1399.2010
1498		1399.6593	specifics	1400.4276
1500		1401.3348	a- as I understand it is that	1402.9812
1502		1403.2753	the- there are	1403.7758
1504		1404.1183	a certain	1404.6583
1506		1405.4661	percentage of the housing	1406.8710
1508		1407.2997	to be developed there	1408.2304
1510		1408.6870	is supposed to be designated	1409.9953
1512		1410.4168	as	1411.0227
1514		1412.2614	below	1412.8051
1516		1412.9632	market rate income.	1413.8046
1517	LES_int_01	1414.0241	Right.	1414.3314
1518	LES_se0_ag4_m_01	1414.4983	Okay.	1414.8363
1520		1415.6266	That's a game.	1416.4958
1522		1416.9524	I mean, that's the biggest	1418.1598
1524		1418.3310	charade	1419.0319
1526		1419.4314	since, I don't know, since Cheez-its.	1421.6310
1528		1422.1358	A- y- you-	1422.8339
1530		1423.0271	you know, y-	1423.4793
1532		1423.6110	Look take Harlem, for example.	1425.4131
1533	LES_int_01	1425.4131	Mm.	1425.7205
1534	LES_se0_ag4_m_01	1427.9902	You've got	1428.4424
1536		1429.0967	a situation where Harlem is being gentrified rapidly. You've got churches buying property and buildings and things like that, and they	1434.9702
1538		1435.2360	and they're rationalizing, like, oh yeah, we're gonna put a lot of	1437.9031
1540		1438.0617	e- lower income housing, like	1439.8898
1542		1440.3374	okay.	1440.6965
1544		1441.4239	But the low	1442.0600
1546		1442.1673	income housing	1443.2024
1548		1444.8251	is pegged	1445.7530
1550		1447.3469	to	1447.7246
1552		1448.5033	a median income- i- is only a- like a small t-	1451.5529
1554		1451.8734	ten, fifteen, twenty percent max,	1453.5195
1556		1454.1303	pegged to a median income of like	1456.3312
1558		1456.6016	forty thousand dollars	1458.2931
1560		1458.7827	forty-five	1459.3796
1562		1459.8645	and the median income in Harlem is like fifteen thousand dollars.	1463.7903
1564		1464.1120	So,	1464.5270
1565	LES_int_01	1465.0959	Yeah.	1465.4223
1567		1466.1310	Those definitions are very tricky, but	1467.8707
1568	LES_se0_ag4_m_01	1468.7510	So, [wha- wha- what does that mean?]	1470.0865
1569	LES_int_01	1468.9152	[Low, affordable, me- moderate, what do they mean? Yeah.]	1472.7246
1570	LES_se0_ag4_m_01	1470.9052	[Yeah.]	1471.3995
1572		1471.7585	[Exactly.]	1472.3927
1573		1472.9429	And	1473.3253
1575		1473.4372	and- and- it's re- very frustrating to me	1475.5412
1577		1476.0448	because I recall having gone to a meeting a couple of years ago over at that-	1479.3113
1579		1480.0341	that um,	1480.6309
1581		1480.8128	building that the Chinese have over there on Houston Street	1484.0057
1583		1485.2274	Um.	1485.6564
1585		1487.2966	The- I think it's	1487.9960
1587		1488.2478	near Christy, or one of those. They- they have a- like a f-	1490.2342
1589		1490.3461	a community center facility.	1491.8895
1590	LES_int_01	1491.8895	Okay.	1492.2475
1592		1492.4004	Mm-hm.	1492.7269
1593	LES_se0_ag4_m_01	1492.6496	And	1493.0308
1594		1493.6836	i- i- this whole question, you know, of-	1495.8285
1596		1496.2855	of um,	1497.0083
1598		1497.8895	of restoration and preservation	1499.6183
1600		1499.7209	was being argued vigorously there.	1501.6793
1601	LES_int_01	1501.9218	[Mm-hm.]	1502.3275
1602	LES_se0_ag4_m_01	1502.0057	[And they invited] developers.	1503.4326
1603		1503.6377	And i- the guys were re- oh look, there's no money in low income housing, you know, so it-	1507.6767
1604	LES_int_01	1507.2990	[Right.]	1507.6767
1605	LES_se0_ag4_m_01	1508.0683	That- that was their whole thing, we wanna make money, we have to make a living, and so.	1511.7649
1606	LES_int_01	1512.4037	Right.	1512.6042
1607	LES_se0_ag4_m_01	1512.9132	The- and, and I think that that's-	1514.3808
1609		1514.7993	that's what	1515.2469
1611		1515.8717	what- what we're facing	1517.1540
1613		1517.4478	with that.	1517.8861
1615		1518.2172	I	1518.4503
1617		1518.7161	quite honestly	1519.7792
1619		1521.1443	I'm not so sanguine that	1522.4826
1621		1522.7484	w-	1522.8976
1623		1523.2380	we can really win that battle.	1524.4690
1625		1525.8492	I think you have to fight it.	1526.9858
1626	LES_int_01	1527.3122	Right.	1527.8951
1627	LES_se0_ag4_m_01	1527.9790	You know, you don't have an option.	1529.0002
1628	LES_int_01	1529.3825	Yeah.	1529.6250
1629	LES_se0_ag4_m_01	1530.3617	But, I- I'm just a-	1531.6021
1630	LES_int_01	1531.6907	How do you see the battle in what,	1533.5958
1631	LES_se0_ag4_m_01	1535.2371	Well, I just	1535.7128
1633		1535.9692	[uh I see-] I see	1537.2702
1634	LES_int_01	1535.9692	[/unintelligible/.]	1536.7293
1635	LES_se0_ag4_m_01	1537.4194	the	1537.6934
1637		1537.8519	the developers	1538.8032
1639		1538.9803	being rich enough to prevail.	1541.2418
1640	LES_int_01	1541.5391	Mm.	1541.9681
1642		1542.5929	Mm-hm.	1542.9147
1643	LES_se0_ag4_m_01	1543.0266	You know	1543.3250
1645		1543.4323	The.	1543.5768
1646	LES_int_01	1543.5768	Yeah.	1543.9685
1648		1544.1830	Yeah.	1544.4721
1649	LES_se0_ag4_m_01	1544.9617	[The- That's what] it really boils down to.	1547.0040
1650	LES_int_01	1545.0864	[Um.]	1545.5195
1652		1546.7173	[/Huh/.]	1547.2039
1653		1548.0050	If it were up to you,	1549.0409
1655		1549.2041	what'd you l- what would you like to see	1550.5097
1656	LES_se0_ag4_m_01	1550.6731	If [it were up to me,] I'd like to see r-	1552.9113
1657	LES_int_01	1550.8408	[developed there?]	1551.5682
1658	LES_se0_ag4_m_01	1553.0698	quite frankly,	1553.7459
1660		1553.8858	a mixture,	1554.7660
1662		1555.3069	given all of these modern	1556.9448
1664		1557.6209	co-op	1557.9707
1666		1558.3250	type buildings [going,]	1559.5333
1667	LES_int_01	1559.1690	[Yeah.]	1559.6908
1668	LES_se0_ag4_m_01	1559.7286	And, [given a hotel]	1561.2720
1669	LES_int_01	1560.1436	[/inaudible/]	1560.8850
1670	LES_se0_ag4_m_01	1561.5424	on every block from Essex	1563.4230
1672		1563.7534	back up to Allen,	1564.7694
1674		1564.9139	you know,	1565.1517
1676		1565.5426	it's just ridiculous.	1566.5731
1677	LES_int_01	1566.4472	It's insane.	1567.2690
1678	LES_se0_ag4_m_01	1567.5756	I would like to see	1568.6693
1680		1569.0983	middle	1569.6486
1682		1569.9610	to lower	1570.6418
1684		1570.8796	income [housing] develop.	1572.2750
1685	LES_int_01	1571.4544	[Okay.	1571.7714
1686		1572.3403	Yeah.	1572.5828
1687	LES_se0_ag4_m_01	1572.7739	I- I think enough already	1574.1670
1689		1574.5633	with this	1574.9457
1691		1575.0716	upper income	1575.8550
1693		1576.2840	enough already with the threats about gentrifying certain of the public housing. Cause we know the city wants out of the public housing business.	1582.6896
1695		1583.2398	I said, it's getting to be quite a miasma here	1586.2436
1697		1586.5747	of-	1586.9104
1699		1587.0270	of	1587.1715
1701		1587.6938	this community	1588.6497
1703		1589.1006	being	1589.6648
1705		1590.0145	sort of	1590.4976
1707		1590.6095	taken over, slowly but surely	1592.7492
1709		1593.0943	by those persons who find it	1594.7305
1711		1594.9181	in their best interest to work close to the financial district.	1597.8360
1712	LES_int_01	1598.6846	Yeah.	1598.9877
1713	LES_se0_ag4_m_01	1599.4820	You know.	1599.7291
1714	LES_int_01	1599.8923	Yeah.	1600.1840
1715	LES_se0_ag4_m_01	1600.7130	And	1601.0907
1717		1601.2865	I say	1601.9615
1719		1603.2671	that	1603.6681
1721		1603.9805	be-	1604.1950
1723		1604.8105	because-	1605.7058
1725		1607.6817	For	1608.1153
1727		1608.9500	a couple a hundred years now	1610.5954
1729		1612.4466	this has been a real neighborhood.	1613.9376
1730	LES_int_01	1614.3386	Yeah.	1614.5531
1731	LES_se0_ag4_m_01	1615.2898	You know.	1615.6768
1733		1616.2177	And- and the people who have made it thus	1618.9502
1735		1620.0774	should have some entitlement	1621.4017
1737		1621.5229	for their progeny, for their children.	1623.9383
1739		1624.4279	Their children ought to be able to-	1626.2546
1741		1626.6323	to	1626.9121
1743		1628.7633	to feel the vibrancy of the neighborhood when they walk through the streets [here.]	1632.6310
1744	LES_int_01	1632.3605	[Yeah.]	1632.6310
1745	LES_se0_ag4_m_01	1632.8035	They- they [should be able to] feel like	1633.8946
1746	LES_int_01	1633.1579	[So.]	1633.5309
1747	LES_se0_ag4_m_01	1634.0765	I belong here.	1634.8272
1748	LES_int_01	1635.0137	So, for you, if there were housing built on that /??/ in the neighborhood,	1638.9174
1750		1639.3604	do you feel that-	1640.2416
1752		1640.3862	that	1640.6986
1754		1641.2617	the people who should move in	1642.8564
1756		1643.2294	to the new housing sounds like should be	1645.3837
1758		1645.6355	local-	1646.2277
1760		1646.8012	local residents, or the children of-	1648.6730
1762		1648.9434	of other folks, I mean who sho- I guess I'm asking, who should that housing be for?	1652.1770
1763	LES_se0_ag4_m_01	1652.5594	Uh. I, you know	1653.5433
1765		1653.8557	the	1654.1121
1767		1655.6917	I think that the local residents	1657.4356
1769		1657.6268	ought to have some	1658.7039
1771		1659.5841	priority on a list	1660.7451
1772	LES_int_01	1661.0212	[Hm.]	1661.3482
1773	LES_se0_ag4_m_01	1661.0575	[that they] develop	1661.6451
1774	LES_int_01	1661.8237	Yeah.	1662.1699
1775	LES_se0_ag4_m_01	1662.2746	but, I don't think it should	1663.2305
1777		1663.3097	the- tha-	1663.5942
1779		1663.7107	that should mean that	1664.6853
1781		1665.3381	people of the same	1666.3098
1783		1666.9067	income strata	1667.8253
1785		1668.3662	should be precluded from having	1669.9737
1787		1670.1649	to- moving into [the neighborhood.]	1671.5677
1788	LES_int_01	1670.9196	[Right.]	1671.2094
1789		1671.6244	[Right.]	1671.9275
1790	LES_se0_ag4_m_01	1673.0932	Do you know what I mean	1674.2309
1791	LES_int_01	1673.5976	[Yeah.]	1673.9676
1792	LES_se0_ag4_m_01	1674.3335	let's keep e- turning it over, that's fine, that's how it always has been.	1677.4619
1793	LES_int_01	1677.6170	Right.	1677.9574
1794	LES_se0_ag4_m_01	1678.0646	You know.	1678.3957
1796		1678.6895	But I think that	1679.6369
1798		1679.7861	i- if there are locals who are really in need of housing an- and who are	1683.8055
1800		1684.0900	deserving of the improved housing situation,	1686.9052
1801	LES_int_01	1686.9052	Yeah.	1687.1990
1802	LES_se0_ag4_m_01	1687.2922	give them some priority.	1688.2994
1803	LES_int_01	1688.4626	Right.	1688.6957
1804	LES_se0_ag4_m_01	1689.0828	Tha- that's- that's not a problem.	1690.5842
1805	LES_int_01	1690.8034	Yeah.	1691.0179
1806	LES_se0_ag4_m_01	1691.1251	You know.	1691.3676
1807	LES_int_01	1691.6054	What do you think about building height?	1693.2502
1809		1694.0056	That's something [people are] opinionated [about.]	1696.2252
1810	LES_se0_ag4_m_01	1694.6211	[Well,]	1694.9289
1812		1696.1273	[That's] something that's bothering me these [days.]	1697.9878
1813	LES_int_01	1697.7928	[Yeah.]	1698.1611
1814	LES_se0_ag4_m_01	1698.4456	Uh, but I	1699.1263
1816		1699.3315	you know	1699.7185
1818		1699.8444	I- I can deal, I live in a building that's twenty one stories, and I hardly know it because it's not	1704.2687
1820		1704.7629	So imposing, and it's right on the river, you know,	1706.6739
1821	LES_int_01	1706.6739	Is it the East River, [/inaudible/]	1708.3805
1822	LES_se0_ag4_m_01	1706.9397	[The s-]	1707.1216
1824		1707.7604	[Yeah, I live in the East River.]	1708.7918
1825		1709.2618	Um.	1709.5509
1827		1709.9240	And I- but, I think that's high enough.	1711.6761
1828	LES_int_01	1711.8020	Yeah.	1712.1750
1830		1713.3733	So, you wouldn't want to see anything higher than that?	1714.9263
1831	LES_se0_ag4_m_01	1714.8562	No.	1715.2199
1832		1715.5463	No, no, no, na- I think it would, it would	1717.3963
1834		1717.6807	change the character.	1718.8837
1836		1719.2661	It would make us look like Hong Kong	1720.9354
1838		1721.4530	or [Tokyo.]	1722.1851
1839	LES_int_01	1721.6488	[<laugh>]	1722.6933
1840	LES_se0_ag4_m_01	1722.6933	Or- or even Beijing.	1724.3522
1841		1724.7578	You know, all these	1725.4293
1843		1725.5086	a- al-	1725.9189
1845		1726.0868	different, well,	1726.6883
1847		1727.3504	Malaysia, I mean I [uh,]	1728.8940
1848	LES_int_01	1728.6196	[<laugh>]	1729.7201
1849	LES_se0_ag4_m_01	1729.1021	[I had an office in] Tokyo for thirteen years,	1730.8664
1850		1731.0763	so I bummed around a lot in Southeast [Asia.]	1733.0028
1851	LES_int_01	1732.8302	[Yeah.]	1733.3105
1852	LES_se0_ag4_m_01	1733.4970	And	1733.8794
1854		1734.2792	A- And I'm always amazed at the kind of	1736.7413
1856		1737.0816	o- of construction	1738.4898
1858		1738.8162	that they've built.	1739.3125
1859	LES_int_01	1739.5950	[Yeah.]	1739.8701
1860	LES_se0_ag4_m_01	1739.6976	[But,] that was a f- we-	1740.6873
1861		1741.1864	but the see uh- New York City has the same excuse.	1743.7139
1863		1744.5765	Many of those	1745.5604
1865		1745.8728	were built	1746.2972
1867		1746.4177	because there isn't that much	1747.8958
1869		1748.0497	space to build on.	1749.1594
1871		1749.8635	So, everything went vertical	1751.1680
1873		1751.6156	You know.	1751.9154
1874	LES_int_01	1751.9094	[Yeah.]	1752.3710
1875	LES_se0_ag4_m_01	1752.2371	[And] there are all these incredible	1753.4855
1876		1753.7139	arguments going on	1754.8890
1878		1755.2014	i- in this city right now for	1756.6422
1880		1756.7903	air rights.	1757.5737
1882		1757.9980	[Uh, you're gonna] fight somebody	1759.6393
1883	LES_int_01	1758.0178	[I know.]	1758.5571
1884	LES_se0_ag4_m_01	1759.9371	to-	1760.0730
1886		1760.1569	about	1760.4693
1887	LES_int_01	1760.3015	[For air.]	1760.8657
1888	LES_se0_ag4_m_01	1760.7025	seven million dollars worth of air	1762.3392
1889	LES_int_01	1762.6178	Oh. [It's so crazy.]	1764.1239
1890	LES_se0_ag4_m_01	1763.1960	[Is i- it doesn't even make sense.]	1764.7021
1891	LES_int_01	1764.3739	It's mix- it's insane.	1765.5181
1892	LES_se0_ag4_m_01	1765.5134	Yeah.	1765.8771
1893		1766.1289	But, [but] that's [what's happ-]	1767.6117
1894	LES_int_01	1766.3947	[For you]	1766.7444
1896		1767.2807	[Buy the air] rights of it.	1768.5472
1897	LES_se0_ag4_m_01	1768.6843	That's what's happening	1769.4805
1898	LES_int_01	1769.4805	[I'd um.]	1770.0773
1899	LES_se0_ag4_m_01	1769.7696	[Right?]	1770.0773
1900	LES_int_01	1770.2732	Yeah.	1770.6649
1901	LES_se0_ag4_m_01	1770.6649	Right, so.	1771.2430
1902	LES_int_01	1771.7886	It's not	1772.2969
1903	LES_se0_ag4_m_01	1772.2969	No, I y- I- I -	1773.2854
1904		1773.5932	[uh. I.]	1774.0921
1905	LES_int_01	1773.5932	[So, do you] di- do you think	1775.0200
1906		1775.1657	the- though that given the fact that that land, in particular has been vacant for forty years, people fight over it, I mean do you think that there's a possibility for it to-	1783.5275
1908		1783.9938	for people to reach a compromise somehow? You know, the fights have been over	1787.2511
1910		1787.7641	the type of housing, you know, just what you're saying, [you know.]	1790.1785
1911	LES_se0_ag4_m_01	1789.7449	[Yeah.]	1790.1226
1912	LES_int_01	1790.4769	What does affordable mean? Some people want all, some people wanna build luxury	1794.1370
1914		1794.2258	condos, and they can't-	1795.3960
1916		1796.0348	they can't seem to agree.	1797.1823
1917	LES_se0_ag4_m_01	1798.0356	I- I, what I think	1799.2573
1919		1800.0453	I- I think	1800.9080
1921		1801.4255	it's only gonna be resolved	1803.0877
1923		1803.9410	in the same way that Harlem-	1805.2792
1925		1805.4937	the Harlem situation [has been resolved.]	1807.2423
1926	LES_int_01	1806.4219	[Hm.]	1806.8602
1927	LES_se0_ag4_m_01	1807.3729	In that	1807.9623
1929		1808.3960	the poor are really gonna lose.	1809.9161
1931		1811.1918	You know.	1811.4669
1933		1811.9419	They'll be just enough	1813.1776
1935		1813.4574	y- you see, people who are in	1814.5438
1937		1814.6464	in- in- who have power, prestige, or money	1816.7798
1939		1817.1389	are very reluctant to give it up.	1818.6101
1940	LES_int_01	1818.8597	Mm.	1819.2254
1941	LES_se0_ag4_m_01	1819.2303	They'll control the distribution of it.	1821.0768
1943		1821.4545	So, a few	1822.5083
1945		1823.4315	will have access, [but]	1824.6439
1946	LES_int_01	1824.3583	[Yeah.]	1824.6439
1947	LES_se0_ag4_m_01	1824.7978	only a few.	1826.0742
1948	LES_int_01	1826.3400	Yeah.	1826.5825
1949	LES_se0_ag4_m_01	1826.7317	You see.	1827.1374
1951		1827.5151	Because they're g- the rationalization's gonna be	1829.7859
1953		1830.5693	and- and	1831.0449
1955		1831.2676	it'll be true in a lot of instances,	1832.7410
1957		1832.9602	the- for some people,	1833.9254
1959		1834.3404	is that	1834.8067
1961		1835.6460	a person isn't gonna wanna pay a million and a half dollars for a condominium or a co-op	1840.9350
1963		1841.5085	and live in the same building	1843.2804
1965		1843.5882	with somebody	1844.4030
1967		1844.6362	who	1845.1211
1969		1845.8485	earns less than	1846.7298
1971		1847.1448	thirty thousand dollars a year.	1848.4644
1973		1849.1685	Well, that's a real snobbish kind of an attitude to have.	1851.9091
1975		1852.5946	You know, as if money defines you	1854.3338
1977		1854.6183	Well, in this country, it does.	1855.9880
1979		1856.3051	In the world, it really does.	1858.0490
1981		1858.1656	Uh. You know.	1858.7065
1983		1859.1215	E-	1859.3033
1985		1859.4339	E- unless you're	1860.4504
1987		1860.5390	in a country	1861.2711
1989		1861.3690	where	1861.7595
1991		1861.9600	there is a-	1862.3890
1993		1863.3169	a more humane attitude toward you're fellow	1865.4712
1995		1865.5598	men.	1865.9328
1996	LES_int_01	1866.0774	[Mm-hm.]	1866.6062
1997	LES_se0_ag4_m_01	1866.1100	[And] that generally	1867.4576
1998		1867.7968	Doesn't	1868.1279
2000		1868.5709	exist	1869.2470
2002		1869.3356	these days	1869.9837
2004		1870.2495	in	1870.4220
2006		1870.5899	to	1870.7811
2008		1870.9816	to great a degree	1871.8769
2010		1872.2592	in America.	1873.0519
2011	LES_int_01	1873.2291	Right.	1873.5917
2012	LES_se0_ag4_m_01	1874.2072	Cause you know.	1874.8320
2013	LES_int_01	1875.1631	Lemme ask you about the Lower East Side as a neighborhood. So, first of all, what, uh, where are the boundaries for you of the Lower East Side?	1881.5351
2014	LES_se0_ag4_m_01	1882.3418	The [boundaries?]	1883.2853
2015	LES_int_01	1882.9356	[Well, like] geographic boundaries.	1884.4696
2016	LES_se0_ag4_m_01	1885.2903	Well, actually,	1886.3103
2018		1887.5880	i-	1887.7605
2020		1888.0310	i- the Lower East Side	1889.3552
2022		1889.4718	these days, goes from	1891.1644
2024		1891.7007	I think Fourteenth Street down to	1893.5413
2026		1893.6346	the Brooklyn [Bridge.]	1894.4879
2027	LES_int_01	1894.3480	[Brooklyn] Bridge. Yeah.	1895.2480
2028	LES_se0_ag4_m_01	1895.3692	Um, and from the East River, probably over to Broadway.	1898.5069
2029	LES_int_01	1899.1364	Uh-huh.	1899.4302
2030	LES_se0_ag4_m_01	1899.7053	Okay.	1900.1658
2031	LES_int_01	1900.1658	Yeah.	1900.5015
2032	LES_se0_ag4_m_01	1900.5015	Which is pretty [wide.]	1901.7605
2033	LES_int_01	1901.5364	[That's] a big. Yeah. [Yeah.]	1902.8330
2034	LES_se0_ag4_m_01	1902.4692	[Yeah.]	1902.8190
2035	LES_int_01	1903.0987	And there are some people that	1904.3531
2037		1904.5489	that view	1905.3509
2039		1905.4908	north of Houston Street	1906.7160
2041		1907.1123	As a [separate s-]	1908.2921
2042	LES_se0_ag4_m_01	1907.5524	[A- a- as a- I do.	1908.8592
2043	LES_int_01	1908.4413	[East Village.]	1909.4817
2044	LES_se0_ag4_m_01	1909.0166	[I personally]	1909.7965
2045		1910.0004	I- I- I see that as East-	1911.5265
2047		1911.6524	East [Village.]	1912.4730
2048	LES_int_01	1912.2725	[Yeah.]	1912.5243
2049		1912.7155	Yeah.	1912.9813
2050	LES_se0_ag4_m_01	1913.0186	And- and that's	1914.0386
2052		1914.1598	it's not Lower East either.	1915.5680
2053	LES_int_01	1916.1229	[Right. <laugh> Right.]	1917.5265
2054	LES_se0_ag4_m_01	1916.2069	[<laugh> You know (laughing) it's neither.	1917.6011
2055		1917.8435	South of Houston.	1918.8834
2056	LES_int_01	1919.1352	[Mm-hm.]	1919.5781
2057	LES_se0_ag4_m_01	1919.3636	E-	1919.5583
2058		1919.7075	And so, n- you've got all these appellations, you know, Noho and Soho [and]	1923.8529
2059	LES_int_01	1923.7410	[<laugh>]	1924.9860
2060	LES_se0_ag4_m_01	1924.4078	[And everything] else, and everybody's	1926.0153
2061		1926.1086	desperate to try to find a way to- to-	1928.2675
2063		1928.4214	to	1928.6871
2065		1928.9529	spike the value of real estate.	1930.9860
2066	LES_int_01	1931.3438	Oh, right.	1931.8195
2067	LES_se0_ag4_m_01	1931.9220	You know.	1932.2718
2068	LES_int_01	1932.5469	Right.	1932.8546
2069	LES_se0_ag4_m_01	1933.0225	So.	1933.2976
2070	LES_int_01	1933.4002	So, uh, so if we have	1934.9343
2072		1935.0835	these boundaries for the Lower East side, um,	1937.4056
2074		1937.6248	who makes up	1938.1354
2076		1938.3313	the Lower East Side community, is it everybody who lives within those streets?	1942.6038
2077	LES_se0_ag4_m_01	1945.7442	I think it probably should be everybody who lives and works	1948.2295
2079		1948.5419	within [those boundaries. Yeah.]	1950.0232
2080	LES_int_01	1948.8574	[Lives and works. Yeah.]	1950.0465
2081		1950.1630	Well, I guess I, I guess I should ask	1951.7781
2083		1952.2724	how you define community, right? Like what does it mean to be a part of a community?	1956.6555
2084	LES_se0_ag4_m_01	1957.8294	Well, in New York, that's a very funny thing.	1959.8392
2085	LES_int_01	1960.0630	Yeah.	1960.3288
2086	LES_se0_ag4_m_01	1960.4733	You know.	1960.8137
2088		1961.2567	Um.	1961.6717
2090		1962.5903	I- I think that-	1963.4564
2092		1963.6662	that	1963.9040
2094		1964.1838	the- the only definition that is universally applicable	1967.2520
2096		1967.7136	is that you live there.	1969.1731
2097	LES_int_01	1969.5217	Mm-hm. [Mm-hm.]	1970.2071
2098	LES_se0_ag4_m_01	1969.8714	[Okay.]	1970.2071
2099		1970.6454	But, a lot of people live	1971.5221
2101		1971.7086	in what we call	1972.4873
2103		1972.6365	New York style.	1973.7696
2104	LES_int_01	1974.5763	[<laugh> What's that?]	1975.9180
2105	LES_se0_ag4_m_01	1975.0659	[You know, and] and it's very important.	1976.7667
2106	LES_int_01	1977.0418	[Yeah.]	1977.3524
2107	LES_se0_ag4_m_01	1977.1490	[Um] in in other words, that means that	1979.4292
2108		1980.2126	I can s- you can- you and I can live on the same floor in an apartment building, and I'll acknowledge your presence in the morning, and	1985.6017
2110		1985.7230	you know, say good morning, it's like	1986.6089
2112		1986.8700	but I don't want anything to do with you	1988.4741
2114		1988.7352	I don't wanna go in your apartment	1990.0735
2116		1990.2460	[unnecessarily,] or you- have you in mine.	1992.6334
2117	LES_int_01	1990.2460	[Yeah.]	1990.5538
2118		1992.6334	Yeah.	1992.9738
2119	LES_se0_ag4_m_01	1993.1976	You know?	1993.5147
2121		1993.7933	And- and- so tha- that's something that we've discovered here that's changed the character of ministry.	1998.5495
2122	LES_int_01	1998.8805	Mm.	1999.4448
2123	LES_se0_ag4_m_01	1999.5147	Okay.	1999.9192
2125		2000.1430	Whereas before,	2001.0150
2127		2001.4393	people who were doing ministry	2002.8429
2129		2003.1786	you had access o-	2004.2044
2131		2004.4185	you would just visit every Sunday after church, you would knock on doors, and	2007.6473
2133		2007.7918	cadge your dinner or something, you know?	2009.1347
2134	LES_int_01	2009.2327	Yeah.	2009.5264
2135	LES_se0_ag4_m_01	2009.5310	<laugh>	2009.9344
2136	LES_int_01	2010.1279	Yeah.	2010.3797
2137	LES_se0_ag4_m_01	2010.3797	But, but now,	2011.4196
2138		2011.9791	um.	2012.3407
2140		2012.8350	A person's home is really a sanctuary.	2015.1618
2141	LES_int_01	2015.4369	Mm.	2015.9964
2142	LES_se0_ag4_m_01	2016.2995	You know, it's where they go	2017.7590
2144		2017.8849	to get away from the vicissitudes of-	2019.6410
2146		2019.9161	of	2020.1912
2148		2020.4244	the city and the neighborhood	2021.8046
2150		2021.9305	[in a] lot of instances.	2023.1522
2151	LES_int_01	2021.9305	[Right.]	2022.3082
2152		2023.1522	Yeah.	2023.5287
2153	LES_se0_ag4_m_01	2023.7152	You know.	2023.9297
2155		2024.1116	So, that's why I say,	2025.0022
2157		2025.2586	l- people have adopted this whole thing of living for years	2028.7045
2159		2028.9377	adjacent to somebody and not really knowing them well.	2031.4358
2160	LES_int_01	2031.6223	Yeah.	2031.8881
2161	LES_se0_ag4_m_01	2032.6109	You know.	2032.8813
2163		2033.1191	Which is okay, I- I- I don't see anything wrong with that.	2035.9527
2164	LES_int_01	2036.0646	No.	2036.2884
2165	LES_se0_ag4_m_01	2036.6848	But so- so that- but that does	2038.4742
2167		2039.3088	in my judgement	2040.1622
2169		2040.6564	create a definition of	2041.8548
2171		2042.0693	who live- of the ne- who's in the neighborhood.	2044.2830
2172	LES_int_01	2044.7167	[Right.]	2045.0384
2173	LES_se0_ag4_m_01	2044.8146	[Just] by virtue of [presence.]	2046.2647
2174	LES_int_01	2046.1715	[Right,] right.	2046.8709
2175		2047.2947	Ho-	2047.4346
2177		2047.5745	Um, how does the African American community in the Lower East Side fit into the larger	2052.5917
2179		2053.0855	community?	2053.7710
2180	LES_se0_ag4_m_01	2054.4611	Well.	2054.8668
2182		2056.6468	You know, it's always been	2058.0504
2184		2059.6731	a difficult thing.	2060.5497
2185	LES_int_01	2061.4077	Really?	2061.7294
2186	LES_se0_ag4_m_01	2063.7146	So, you're starting with the fact that	2065.4166
2188		2067.5476	the African American community was heterogeneous from s- let's just say	2070.9783
2190		2071.6777	early nineteenth century.	2072.6942
2192		2073.0999	Some were enslaved,	2074.1631
2194		2074.3682	some were free,	2075.1504
2196		2075.6307	some were very poor. Most.	2077.2254
2197	LES_int_01	2077.5285	Mm.	2077.7756
2198	LES_se0_ag4_m_01	2077.8456	But, they were, for example,	2079.2445
2200		2079.5429	the- they were	2080.0558
2202		2080.4895	African Americans who owned	2082.0923
2204		2082.5260	farmland. Viable farmland	2084.5357
2206		2084.8435	from Chatham Square up to Aster Place, along the Bowery.	2087.6121
2207	LES_int_01	2087.6867	Mm-hm.	2087.9571
2208	LES_se0_ag4_m_01	2087.9571	They were- they owned businesses in the West Village, a- you know, in Greenwich Village and places like [that.]	2092.8162
2209	LES_int_01	2092.6543	[Uh-huh.]	2093.1613
2210	LES_se0_ag4_m_01	2093.2406	And, a-	2093.7861
2212		2094.1592	and so a- what- I guess what I'm saying is that they- they-	2096.2714
2214		2096.4626	always run	2097.4838
2216		2097.6517	the-	2097.8615
2218		2098.0849	the whole	2098.5559
2220		2098.7331	gamut of	2099.2040
2222		2099.5398	this economic scale	2100.6588
2223	LES_int_01	2100.7288	[Okay.]	2101.0226
2224	LES_se0_ag4_m_01	2100.9386	[from] enslaved to free, from poor	2103.0043
2225		2103.2689	to wealthy.	2103.9077
2226	LES_int_01	2104.0523	Right.	2104.2994
2227	LES_se0_ag4_m_01	2104.2994	Okay.	2104.6912
2228		2105.6377	The problem has been, and then, this is the problem for persons of color	2109.4591
2230		2109.7901	almost everywhere.	2110.6321
2232		2111.9132	Is that	2112.2909
2234		2112.7432	and- and in a- in a	2113.6245
2236		2113.9276	a neighborhood that's in a constant state of flux	2115.9460
2238		2116.7759	like thes-	2117.3068
2240		2117.4349	Lower East Side.	2118.0756
2241	LES_int_01	2118.0756	Yeah.	2118.3188
2242	LES_se0_ag4_m_01	2118.9238	Is that the newer	2120.0222
2244		2120.1443	residents	2121.5315
2246		2122.1723	almost immediately	2123.8884
2248		2125.0191	adopt,	2125.6654
2250		2126.8070	as a defense mechanism,	2128.2593
2252		2128.9453	all of the prejudices and biases that they find when they get here.	2132.4480
2253	LES_int_01	2133.4796	Hm.	2133.8885
2254	LES_se0_ag4_m_01	2134.1020	Okay.	2134.5231
2256		2135.0357	So,	2135.5482
2258		2136.1157	you have this peculiar thing	2137.6291
2260		2138.2271	where you have	2138.8712
2262		2139.0360	for example,	2139.7560
2264		2140.3113	a dark skinned	2141.4463
2266		2142.0931	Dominican	2142.8254
2267	LES_int_01	2143.0817	Mm-hm.	2143.4478
2268	LES_se0_ag4_m_01	2143.9055	Who definitely has	2145.0753
2270		2145.4536	African blood. You can tell by the shape of their hips. It's steatopygic all the way.	2149.6637
2271	LES_int_01	2149.8895	Mm-hm.	2150.2186
2272	LES_se0_ag4_m_01	2150.2186	You know.	2150.5241
2273		2152.5378	Getting very offended if you tell 'em- if you	2154.5716
2275		2154.9743	even s-	2155.4930
2277		2155.7493	think that they're black. They could be black n-	2157.8179
2279		2157.9705	as ink.	2158.6356
2280	LES_int_01	2158.6905	Hm.	2159.1360
2281	LES_se0_ag4_m_01	2159.1360	But i-	2159.5263
2282		2159.7948	i- [i-]	2160.2524
2283	LES_int_01	2160.0327	[Right.]	2160.4477
2284	LES_se0_ag4_m_01	2160.4477	But,	2160.6430
2285		2160.8687	Right away, no no, I'm- I'm from Dominican Republic.	2163.3523
2287		2163.9117	As i- as if that made a big difference.	2165.6325
2289		2165.8949	[You know.]	2166.1512
2290	LES_int_01	2165.8949	[<laugh>]	2167.0665
2291	LES_se0_ag4_m_01	2166.7431	[Um.]	2167.2224
2292	LES_int_01	2167.7044	Right.	2168.1194
2293	LES_se0_ag4_m_01	2168.4198	But- but-	2168.9019
2295		2169.0056	but that's what happens.	2170.3281
2297		2170.6461	And so,	2171.1587
2299		2171.5492	Wha- what- what	2172.1147
2301		2172.5357	part of that,	2173.2863
2303		2173.8878	is that their children	2175.3584
2305		2176.5301	adopt a really negative attitude toward their peers who are African Americans and it sort of perpetuates	2182.5093
2307		2183.0707	the whole thing.	2183.8213
2309		2184.3447	For years on the Lower East Side, Allen Street	2187.4018
2311		2187.9387	e-	2188.0974
2313		2188.2805	and- was- it-	2189.3096
2315		2189.8710	was the dividing line between	2191.5729
2317		2191.6583	Chinese community, Hispanic community.	2193.4890
2318	LES_int_01	2193.7331	Mm.	2193.9649
2319	LES_se0_ag4_m_01	2193.9649	And	2194.2644
2320		2195.2110	both communities were fearful of crossing the l-	2197.4077
2322		2197.5664	street	2197.8959
2323	LES_int_01	2198.0179	[Mm-hm.]	2198.7502
2324	LES_se0_ag4_m_01	2198.2864	[to go] into the other side.	2199.4703
2325	LES_int_01	2199.5801	Right.	2199.8608
2326	LES_se0_ag4_m_01	2199.9401	Because of these attitudes	2201.3416
2328		2201.7443	that they found when they got here that they adopted for defense mechanism that they helped to perpetuate by virtue of	2207.6234
2330		2208.7607	behavior of the same manner.	2210.1337
2331	LES_int_01	2210.1337	Mm-hm.	2210.4693
2332	LES_se0_ag4_m_01	2210.5609	So,	2210.9026
2334		2211.9277	there, it's	2212.6051
2336		2213.7645	<ts>	2213.8499
2338		2215.1642	African American community,	2216.4090
2340		2216.5310	on the Lower East Side	2217.6660
2342		2218.7949	is still	2219.4113
2344		2219.6492	fighting	2220.2351
2346		2220.3694	for its manhood	2221.4555
2347	LES_int_01	2221.6630	Mm-hm.	2222.0475
2348	LES_se0_ag4_m_01	2222.0475	just as African Americans have been	2224.1039
2349		2224.7671	in this country for four hundred [years.]	2226.4391
2350	LES_int_01	2226.0180	[Mm-hm.]	2226.4391
2351	LES_se0_ag4_m_01	2227.0958	[/??/]	2227.4509
2352	LES_int_01	2227.0958	[Do you] these affect	2228.8654
2353		2229.4024	tensions	2230.1102
2355		2230.2506	within the	2230.8242
2357		2231.7935	the different groups within the neighborhood?	2233.5278
2358	LES_se0_ag4_m_01	2233.5278	Do I see tension?	2234.3882
2359	LES_int_01	2234.5469	Yeah.	2234.9069
2360	LES_se0_ag4_m_01	2235.5415	I	2235.8771
2362		2236.3226	I th- I think	2237.2775
2364		2239.3827	I- I think	2239.9441
2366		2240.6031	somewhat l-	2241.2561
2368		2241.8236	less	2242.5131
2370		2242.8853	than say twenty,	2243.7306
2372		2244.1883	twenty-five years ago.	2245.2134
2373	LES_int_01	2245.2134	Mm-hm.	2245.5124
2374	LES_se0_ag4_m_01	2245.5124	Because younger people tend to be freer thinkers [nowadays.]	2248.5279
2375	LES_int_01	2248.0702	[Mm.]	2248.5279
2376	LES_se0_ag4_m_01	2248.9459	A- and so	2249.4855
2378		2249.8193	there's-	2250.1244
2380		2250.2735	you know,	2250.4428
2382		2250.6274	there's a diminution of that.	2252.0248
2383	LES_int_01	2252.0248	Yeah.	2252.3665
2384	LES_se0_ag4_m_01	2252.7082	Um,	2253.0005
2386		2253.4344	but you still have their parents and their grandparents, you know,	2256.5561
2388		2256.9039	who hang on to these old shibboleths, you know, they don't know	2259.5783
2390		2259.8407	what to make of anything	2260.9573
2391	LES_int_01	2261.0794	Yeah.	2261.4455
2392	LES_se0_ag4_m_01	2261.4543	And so, they sort of perpetuate it.	2262.9931
2394		2263.4935	[Um.]	2263.9085
2395	LES_int_01	2263.7254	[Yeah.]	2264.0183
2396	LES_se0_ag4_m_01	2264.4515	Y- you can have, for example, young Asians	2266.8940
2398		2267.2357	who have	2267.8520
2400		2268.2304	African American friends whose grandparents	2271.1106
2402		2271.2326	don't want in the house.	2272.4668
2403	LES_int_01	2274.4989	Right.	2274.8772
2404	LES_se0_ag4_m_01	2275.6033	e- the- it's-	2276.5858
2405	LES_int_01	2277.0089	Yeah,	2277.4632
2407		2277.6064	still exists.	2278.5279
2408	LES_se0_ag4_m_01	2278.7536	So, it's- So I guess maybe we're a couple of decades away.	2281.4508
2410		2281.8230	[You know (laughing)]	2282.5203
2411	LES_int_01	2282.1769	[Yeah. <laugh>]	2283.2525
2412	LES_se0_ag4_m_01	2283.3257	You know, from a real sort of freedom in that [respect, you know.]	2286.6636
2413	LES_int_01	2285.8947	[Yeah, well I hope so.]	2286.9199
2414	LES_se0_ag4_m_01	2287.2006	Yeah.	2287.4752
2415	LES_int_01	2287.4536	/?/	2287.7670
2416		2288.1342	Um.	2288.6712
2418		2289.3440	/RD-NAME-2/ always likes me to ask if there are places in the neighborhood that are important to you, she works on a	2295.1838
2419	LES_se0_ag4_m_01	2295.3608	[Well, look.]	2296.1298
2420	LES_int_01	2295.3608	[this /inaudible/ project.]	2296.8025
2421	LES_se0_ag4_m_01	2296.5021	[Ma-] /RD-NAME-2/	2297.3944
2422		2297.7239	/RD-NAME-2/ uh.	2298.6026
2424		2300.6712	y- you know, the- they installed me in their people's hall of fame thing a couple of years [ago.]	2304.4336
2425	LES_int_01	2304.1529	[Okay,] cool.	2304.9794
2426	LES_se0_ag4_m_01	2305.4004	Uh.	2305.6323
2428		2307.0459	Every week, when I get to /RD-WORK-4/, I- I told /RD-NAME-2/ this not too long ago, I said	2310.7624
2430		2311.2444	ow- I'm s- and I know /RD-NAME-4/ well.	2313.4717
2432		2313.7768	you know, the lady that started the whole [thing.]	2315.5375
2433	LES_int_01	2315.2562	[Okay.] Yeah.	2315.8481
2434	LES_se0_ag4_m_01	2316.1166	So,	2316.5011
2436		2317.8008	I said, I'm so happy that you do this.	2319.3752
2438		2319.7962	Because, what it has done for me,	2321.4881
2440		2322.0084	in many instances	2323.4164
2442		2323.6727	was reminded me of-	2324.9663
2444		2325.0884	of several stories that were really important to me in my life.	2327.5857
2446		2328.0678	You know.	2328.4278
2448		2328.6597	But, the thi- the thing about Red Hook that	2330.2463
2450		2330.3622	tha-	2330.5575
2452		2330.8687	em-	2331.0701
2454		2331.2165	uh- by the Todd Shipyard, I said I learned to swim off the docks down there in Todd Shipyard.	2335.2272
2456		2335.6239	And then the thing about the	2336.6551
2458		2336.9846	the-	2337.1555
2460		2337.3691	the Empire Roller Ring, I said, you know, I threw a picket line around that place, I was sixteen years old because they wouldn't let African Americans	2343.5033
2462		2344.0342	skate there then.	2344.8718
2464		2345.2684	You know, so uh, I- I think.	2346.6353
2466		2347.1235	Yeah.	2347.3798
2468		2347.6483	But i- the places on the Lower East Side	2350.0708
2470		2350.3088	that were important to me are gone.	2352.0458
2471	LES_int_01	2353.0363	Okay.	2353.4906
2472	LES_se0_ag4_m_01	2353.6156	y- you know, [like,] like [the- the-] um.	2355.7392
2473	LES_int_01	2354.2014	[Yeah.]	2354.4882
2475		2354.8261	[Yeah.]	2355.1229
2476	LES_se0_ag4_m_01	2356.5996	I can't even remember the name, um- me- the Kosher restaurants that used to be on Essex and Delancey	2360.4394
2477	LES_int_01	2360.4760	Yeah.	2360.8788
2478	LES_se0_ag4_m_01	2361.0130	A- and	2361.6904
2480		2362.1114	a- and	2362.7460
2482		2362.8864	and the um	2363.8749
2484		2364.6953	the- the- Daily Forward Building is now an expensive co-op, [you know.]	2367.7697
2485	LES_int_01	2367.4768	[Yeah. (laughing)]	2368.0809
2486	LES_se0_ag4_m_01	2368.4165	Y- you know what I mean, t- that's is what mattered to me.	2370.8391
2487	LES_int_01	2371.0556	[Right.]	2371.3674
2488	LES_se0_ag4_m_01	2371.1930	[The] stuff that's	2371.9557
2489		2372.1526	matteri-	2372.6957
2491		2372.9581	matters to	2373.5805
2493		2374.2090	I notice a lot of people who	2375.5149
2495		2375.6003	maybe a decade of two younger than me here at the [church]	2377.9451
2496	LES_int_01	2377.5607	[Yeah.]	2377.9451
2497	LES_se0_ag4_m_01	2378.3357	that still exists, like	2379.3608
2499		2379.6293	e- um.	2380.1907
2501		2380.4043	What they call, Edges.	2381.4600
2503		2381.6308	You know.	2382.1373
2505		2382.4302	The	2382.5706
2507		2382.9977	the uh,	2383.3577
2509		2385.1351	the- that	2385.6659
2511		2385.9039	group there on	2386.8253
2513		2386.9657	East Broadway	2387.7163
2515		2387.8322	across from the library.	2388.8024
2516	LES_int_01	2389.0099	Um. I know [/unintelligible/.]	2390.8463
2517	LES_se0_ag4_m_01	2390.0916	[Is]	2390.4150
2519		2390.6225	[you know.]	2390.8727
2520		2391.3608	Uh, but	2391.9039
2522		2392.2334	the- t- w- what's left is	2394.0885
2524		2394.2594	Grand Street Settlement, Hendricks Street Settlement,	2395.9802
2525	LES_int_01	2396.6890	[The settlement houses?]	2397.3968
2526	LES_se0_ag4_m_01	2396.8055	[the settlement] houses because they go way back.	2399.8219
2527	LES_int_01	2399.9848	Yeah.	2400.3082
2528	LES_se0_ag4_m_01	2400.3082	Um.	2400.5217
2529		2400.8024	And they still do really good work.	2402.7750
2530	LES_int_01	2403.0130	Yeah.	2403.2510
2531	LES_se0_ag4_m_01	2403.4829	Do you know what I mean?	2404.1175
2533		2404.2029	And- and so they- they've become very important	2406.5523
2535		2406.9794	the- the uh	2407.8581
2537		2408.0550	n-	2408.2624
2539		2408.6286	the incredible synagogue	2410.3616
2541		2410.8192	network	2411.6064
2543		2412.8513	that's here	2413.5591
2545		2414.0977	on the Lower East Side that's	2415.5195
2547		2415.7087	running into a lot of difficulty of late.	2417.5820
2549		2417.7102	You know, [trying to keep] the buildings going.	2419.7987
2550	LES_int_01	2418.1129	[Yeah.]	2418.4363
2551		2419.7987	Right.	2420.1587
2552	LES_se0_ag4_m_01	2420.7140	That to me is really important	2422.3438
2554		2422.6362	you know.	2422.9596
2556		2423.4417	Um.	2423.7224
2558		2424.4424	Because	2425.2601
2560		2426.2319	they were so rich with history and- and stories and things of that sort.	2430.7156
2561	LES_int_01	2430.7353	Yeah.	2431.0818
2562	LES_se0_ag4_m_01	2431.2967	Um.	2431.6751
2564		2432.9764	They matter.	2433.8002
2566		2434.2578	[You know.]	2434.7338
2567	LES_int_01	2434.2578	[Yeah.]	2434.6303
2568	LES_se0_ag4_m_01	2435.4356	Um.	2435.7102
2570		2438.4394	Aside from that,	2439.3242
2572		2440.5080	it's really the parks. The little pocket parks,	2443.4737
2574		2443.9024	uh, and the large and small parks	2446.1175
2575	LES_int_01	2446.1175	[Yeah.]	2446.4531
2576	LES_se0_ag4_m_01	2446.2701	[you know.]	2446.5569
2577		2447.0694	Tha-	2447.1915
2579		2447.5759	the- the few trees	2449.4676
2580	LES_int_01	2451.1045	[<laugh>]	2451.9833
2581	LES_se0_ag4_m_01	2451.8246	[The] few trees that [you have on the Lower East Side are] really important to [me.]	2455.5225
2582	LES_int_01	2452.9962	[<laugh>]	2454.3458
2584		2455.3455	[Yeah.]	2455.7544
2585		2455.9557	[Yeah. That's true.]	2456.8299
2586	LES_se0_ag4_m_01	2456.1154	[You kn- you know.]	2456.8299
2587		2457.8734	Um.	2458.1663
2589		2458.3616	Seward Park High School	2459.5698
2591		2459.7895	i- is important	2460.7841
2593		2460.9367	[you know.]	2461.2906
2594	LES_int_01	2460.9367	[Mm-hm.]	2461.2906
2595	LES_se0_ag4_m_01	2461.6400	I think as an institution, that means a lot to a lot of people I know.	2464.5890
2596	LES_int_01	2464.8681	[Yeah.]	2465.2464
2597	LES_se0_ag4_m_01	2464.8697	[You know.]	2465.1427
2598		2465.7773	So,	2466.0824
2600		2466.2288	the- the- the	2466.9184
2602		2467.1808	[I guess] I've	2467.7544
2603	LES_int_01	2467.1808	[Yeah.]	2467.4066
2604		2468.4577	Uh.	2468.8361
2606		2469.1961	We- Where do you see the neighborhood going?	2470.9025
2608		2471.7590	What do you think's gonna happen to the [whole-]	2473.5713
2609	LES_se0_ag4_m_01	2473.0404	[A-] I think- I think the neighborhood is gonna really suffer, the character of it is gonna change because of gentrification,	2478.5828
2610		2478.9733	and if the economy falters,	2480.8788
2612		2481.2693	any more,	2481.8429
2614		2482.2334	it's gonna be a real disaster.	2483.3867
2616		2483.9542	Because the people who have got all these high r-	2485.7971
2618		2486.4089	high price, high rent things	2487.7636
2620		2488.0077	are not gonna be really able to afford them,	2489.5515
2622		2490.0214	and I don't know what that means because the owners of them are not gonna turn them over	2494.3189
2624		2495.6003	you know, to people	2496.6011
2626		2496.7414	of lesser wealth, I [mean, uh, so.]	2498.6896
2627	LES_int_01	2498.0184	[Yeah.]	2498.4089
2628	LES_se0_ag4_m_01	2499.0435	I- I think this neighborhood is dangerously	2501.3684
2630		2501.7712	um,	2502.0458
2632		2502.3753	on the- one the edge of becoming	2503.8109
2634		2504.1099	uh- a miles from s- something that we can't recognize easily.	2507.3440
2635	LES_int_01	2507.2675	Mm-hm.	2507.9787
2636	LES_se0_ag4_m_01	2508.0702	You know.	2508.5156
2638		2509.0831	[It's re-]	2509.4676
2639	LES_int_01	2509.0831	[Do you] think that it's important for us and for the-	2512.0199
2640		2512.2640	those people who are new to- to really understand the history of the neighborhood?	2516.3662
2641	LES_se0_ag4_m_01	2518.6850	To really [understand]	2519.7956
2642	LES_int_01	2519.0572	[Kind of] in order to move forward, I guess, do we need to know about the past?	2522.4882
2643	LES_se0_ag4_m_01	2524.0626	I think	2524.4592
2645		2524.8315	a-	2525.0084
2647		2528.3052	I don't agree with that.	2529.3364
2648	LES_int_01	2529.3364	Hm.	2529.6659
2649	LES_se0_ag4_m_01	2530.6057	Because	2531.3684
2651		2532.8391	It- i- the assumption is is that the past is going to be instructive	2536.2884
2653		2536.9230	to the-	2537.2891
2655		2537.4112	to the	2537.7041
2657		2537.8688	present in some way.	2538.8574
2659		2539.0587	[In some way.]	2539.5896
2660	LES_int_01	2539.0587	[Could it] be, yeah, yeah. [I guess that's what I'm wondering. Is it.]	2541.2640
2661	LES_se0_ag4_m_01	2540.3242	Um.	2540.5988
2663		2540.8551	[But, but]	2541.3128
2664		2542.2159	to me, at least in New York,	2544.6035
2666		2544.8653	the present and the future are always dramatically different than the [past.]	2548.9861
2667	LES_int_01	2548.5041	[Hm.] Yeah. [Mm-hm.]	2550.1482
2668	LES_se0_ag4_m_01	2549.5929	And so you, c- I can't even imagine, you know. I mean, Coney Island	2552.8687
2669		2553.0151	is gone.	2553.9610
2671		2554.3725	You know, the beach houses at Rockaway	2556.1726
2673		2556.3801	are	2556.5563
2675		2556.7210	gone.	2557.2092
2676	LES_int_01	2557.6046	[Mm.]	2557.8637
2677	LES_se0_ag4_m_01	2557.6595	[Ta-] Do you know what I mean, and what's gonna be this	2560.1032
2678		2560.3168	eh- eh-	2560.6951
2680		2560.8599	it's not gonna be anything like what was.	2563.6852
2682		2564.2542	A- and so, that's what I- I see [that as]	2566.6585
2683	LES_int_01	2566.4327	[Yeah, yeah.] So it's maybe not relevant.	2568.8553
2684	LES_se0_ag4_m_01	2567.1040	[A sort of.]	2567.6715
2685		2568.8614	Not at all. I t- well, it's relevant from a historical point of [view.]	2572.2130
2686	LES_int_01	2572.0605	[Yeah, yeah.]	2572.9087
2687	LES_se0_ag4_m_01	2572.5548	[Of what.]	2572.9087
2688		2573.1650	You know, what a certain group of people	2574.8370
2690		2575.0566	had to enjoy their lives	2577.0597
2691	LES_int_01	2577.0597	Yeah.	2577.3954
2692	LES_se0_ag4_m_01	2577.4869	and and so you make a comparison between they- the way they enjoy life and the way you enjoy life	2581.7844
2694		2582.1566	and so you can have some sort of a, you know, thing about that	2584.3351
2695	LES_int_01	2584.5609	[Yeah.]	2584.8294
2696	LES_se0_ag4_m_01	2584.6646	[but,] as far as the- the-	2585.9583
2697		2587.4899	the development of a new neighborhood,	2589.3587
2699		2589.5784	the past	2590.2680
2701		2591.2382	in my judgement isn't really	2592.7576
2703		2593.1482	that informative.	2594.3946
2704	LES_int_01	2594.3946	Right, right.	2595.3221
2706		2595.9690	Interesting, interesting.	2597.0002
2708		2597.2504	Listen, I uh, I know I told you we'd keep this as short as possible. I could go on forever.	2600.9194
2709	LES_se0_ag4_m_01	2600.9987	I- well I can't	2601.9873
2710	LES_int_01	2602.2741	This has been great, I mean I- I asked you all my key questions, so	2605.6180
2711	LES_se0_ag4_m_01	2605.6180	Okay.	2606.0360
2712	LES_int_01	2606.0360	we can go ahead and stop.	2606.8597
2713	LES_se0_ag4_m_01	2607.0001	Alright, please.	2607.7690